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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: Nutz4sand on December 21, 2008, 07:55:28 PM
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I was looking at a few things and this though occured to me.
CV's and plunge is in many cases a BIG issue next to angle. But the plunge is still a problem.
Instead of the conventional way CV's are used use them backwards.
Mount the CV's center stars on the center shaft. Short splined shafts are easy to get. Flanges that match the splines can hook to sprockets and brake discs. Bearings to fit the shafts are reasonable.
Then around the star the cage would pivot. Then you would have whatever diameter the CV is to hook (weld) to a driveshaft tube that a slip joint is in. The CV flanges whatever inch diameter would be easy to hook a driveshaft to with lots of weld area for strength.
The tolerances would hold the shafts to spin true just as easy as when the cages are held to flanges (that are somtimes just a slip fit on shafts) and a skinny axle is in the middle.
Thoughts?
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As an after thought to take it a different direction if you already have a setup but need more plunge get short splined shafts that fit the inside of the CV's you have mounted in the conventinal way. The splined shafts fit inside the CV's then into common flanges (Type 1 for low power and small tires and bigger as needed) Then have driveshafts made with a slip joint that would bolt into the common flanges that are over the nice splined shafts coming out of your CV's.
If thats not clear I can explain more and perhaps make a diagram up.
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Clear as mud.Sketches please.
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I'll second that...... I just couldn't keep up. :P
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This might help shed a lil light on it. The driveshaft slip joint is common and can be gotten anywhere. It welds to the ends of the driveshaft tube and the driveshaft tube is made to whatever length you need. Then welded to the parts that are drilled and fit into the flanges (The orange and blue parts below) It is just a piece of metal thats welded to the slip joint's tube on one side and drilled to bolt to the flange on the other.
The top one below is for the top post above of mine. The bottom one below is for the second post.
Did I filter the mud enough?
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I'm confused here. Looks like you are trying to reinvent the wheel into a square to me. So you are saying let the shafts do the plunging instead of the cvs? Like the extreme axles with u joints do? Looks like a ton of work and parts and pieces to worry about. JMO.
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Not reinventing so much as looking for better ways to help those with plunge issues.
These are not as complicated as they appear to be. These would also work for a person using TWO outer CV joints from a front drive car for the 33 plus degrees they can hit. But they have NO PLUNGE.
But many designs I see having CV trouble were built wrong thus the plunge tears things up or apart. These would not be that expensive to build or that complicated and all the parts are proven to be able to handle some good abuse.
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Another question nuts, it looks like everything put together you are loosing axle length which will limit your travel due to more cv angle. I could be confused in all this though.
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Actually no. I was limited in the space I had to "sketch" it up. Your CV's are gonna be the distance apart they can be. That will not change if these were fitted to any machine. This was just to show the genral layout of a couple ideas that would fit inbetween the CV's that had plunge issues.
These do not affect the width of any machine or the cv's loaction. Just a different way to mount them in one instance and a different way to deal with plunge if it was needed.
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this is what i got out of it.
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now you're adding to center section width. I'm going to scribble now....
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here is a bolt in replacement for cv setups with plunge issues.
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he's wanting to have a cv work the opposit the way it does now. On a regular setup, the main cv housing stays put, and is attached to the bearing carrier, and the star is attached to the shaft and pivots. He's wanting to attach the star to the carrier and stay fixed, and have the main cv cage attach to attach to and pivot with the axle..
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you could possibly have a killer cv boot setup that way anyhow...it wouldnt have to shrink down to the size of the axle, it could stay the same diameter and mount to the plate etc...
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cv boots have to be tapered. that's what allows them to work. otherwise the boot would bunch up on itself.
I don't see any benefit to flipping the cvs so the star stays put and the housing pivots.
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They don't have to be tapered, they just have to have enuff ????? "Pleats" in them to act...
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Wouldn't work anyhow, as the boot has to spin with the CV... b:1 Brain fart today...
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the taper allows the pleats to fit inside each other. A straight boot with pleats will curve rather than fold in on itself. The difference in diameter from one pleat to the next is where the magic happens.
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wanna try that again? I'm pretty sure both sides of the cv spin. better reload and take another puff.
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wanna try that again? I'm pretty sure both sides of the cv spin. better reload and take another puff.
well it wouldn't if it was mounted to a plate now would it? Yes it would curve and plunge, Would that huryt anything?
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My inital statement was you could have a cool cv boot as you could mount it to the plate... b:1 Thats why i said, brain fart, has to turn with the cv... Hell you got it easy, were getting hammered with the cold to... ;D My driveway has more snow in it now from the wind, than it did when it dumped 12" from the sky...Cold as fxxk here to... Hell specs got it the worse, hes in Minnesota, talk about frosty nipples... ;D
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How do you clean the swimming pool when it is that cold?
Ya keep talking smack bitch, I been looking at the mesa area...Of course we do have the luxury of sitting on the porch drinking beer in July and August... Some pretty nice houses there, a bit to far from home "family" for me at this time tho... Were im going, it is 50 today, maybe see 1" of snow all yr, hell pilothawk told me it was 65 in Tenn Thursday...
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It's fricken 6 in SE KANSAS!!!
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I wish it was 6 here I'd be out on the ladder stickin my windows in. For now I guess I will stick with my plywood and plastic. It's keeping the cold out better than the old windows anyway.
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How do you clean the swimming pool when it is that cold?
with a scraper, duh. :D
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Ditto.
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Colder than a witches tit here!
CV Question for those in the know.... The Front wheel drive or 4 wheel drive CV's that allow NO plunge, do they have something built in that accomodates thrust? Another words is there something that controls plunge at zero? So if you did use a slip joint, could there be an issues of the star coming out of the CV? I assume that it is somehow held in place, and that the Inner tripod or CV allows for all the plunge.
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I wish it was 6 here I'd be out on the ladder stickin my windows in. For now I guess I will stick with my plywood and plastic. It's keeping the cold out better than the old windows anyway.
What's worse...... Installing windows when it is zero, or not having windows when it is zero :o :o :o
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I would wait till spring but I don't think my girlfriend will hold out that long. she's been living in our new house for a year now without me.
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last week we got 13 inches of snow.. and it has been a blowing bitch ever since. drifts everywhere. has not gotten warmer than 0 during the day and gets down to -10 at night, then you have windchill..... :(
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It's 11 am here end -21 with a wind chill of -40...and it's the high for today 8)
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It's 11 am here end -21 with a wind chill of -40...and it's the high for today 8)
I feel your pain.
It will only be 60 here today - I might need a sweater...... BBBBBRRRRRRR!!
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I will have to say Voodoo chikens rendering is pretty dang good expression of what I was trying to say (Heck its better than mine by a good shot!). It DOES take a little more width to the center section AS DOES my first rendering (Top diagram in my "sketch" on first page.) So thats why I came up with my second version. Its practically a bolt in with parts anyone of us can buy pretty local to us.
Boostinjdm's rendering certainly makes for a clean layout and a nice look. The shaft coming out of the cv (the one on the left) is easy. The part coming from the right would be tougher. Does anyone here now where you might get a female splined shaft like that? I wonder what a shaft place would charge to make such a unit? this would be a cool setup if it were to be had reasonable$$$.
I don't see any benefit to flipping the cvs so the star stays put and the housing pivots.
The main reason this occured to me to "flip them" so the star stays put and the housing pivots is easy.
Most of us can cut and drill a flange on a simple lathe that we can bolt to the outside of a common CV flange. Then this nice big round piece of metal is easy to weld to a common car driveshaft slip joint. Connecting to a large round 6 bolt flange at each end makes a part we can make and make stout.
The percentage of us that can make a splined unit that goes INSIDE the CV stars "and plunge" is far less I would wager.
I know some (Bug said he has I beleive I remember. Correct me if I am mistaken Bug) have welded splined shafts together (I think for this same reason?? To add a slip joint or??). But with most splined CV shafts thats a very short distance around and not much weld area VS a common driveshaft tube thats many more inches of available weld area to add strength. Getting splined shafts made for center spools for the stars to ride on is easy. The outer axle is still a bit of a hunt for my first diagram but I am thinking on it. Its the primary reason I thought of the second version.
The second version was to allow use of a common VW style axle or any other for that matter.
CV Question for those in the know.... The Front wheel drive or 4 wheel drive CV's that allow NO plunge, do they have something built in that accomodates thrust? Another words is there something that controls plunge at zero? So if you did use a slip joint, could there be an issues of the star coming out of the CV? I assume that it is somehow held in place, and that the Inner tripod or CV allows for all the plunge.
Common street cars have little travel so the inner joint does normally take ALL the plunge. It sees only a few degrees of angle. The outer cv is a balled captured CV so it can do huge degree numbers to steer the car but has no back and forth plunge. The star in an outer CV of a common street car is not coming out of that joint if its in good condition unless you remove the axle. Tip the star sideways and castrate it (remove its ballz!). Then they normally have to be spun to a certain way (as does the ball cage) to still come out after that.
All this snow is probably my fault. I traded my sled for a quad.......So thus its snowing like no tommorrow.
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The inners do not see huge angles, but they do see a lot of plunge, the whole cv on the outboard side swings as it turns...you may have the drive shaft moving for and aft the centerline 2+ inches, so IMO the inner tripod joints plunge a lot, that is exactly why they are on there...
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to add, a non plunging ball cv does not fall apart when you turn the star either, you have to work at it to get it apart and back together...
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I wonder if something like a front driveshaft out of a 99 dodge dakota would work for the slip part? either way you look at it, you're going to have the same number of splined shafts that have to fit the cv stars if running the 930 or vw joints plus the slip joints. as far as the right shaft in my rendering I think some dom with a splined shaft pressed in then welded on the cv side would work then a female splined hub, turned down, pressed in, then welded would work on the slip side. as far as the welding goes, some front wheel drive cars have hollow axles with solid ends, the only way to do that that I know of is to weld them somewhere. They would need a proper preheat/post heat ofcourse.
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the front drive tube axle cars would be the best to start with, cut them in half and add slips, My axles plunge in my car, and if one was to look at them close, not that complicated, one end does have to be splined, but there is peep around to do that.. ;D
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since we are talking splines, you got any ideas where to get a female splined center section other than cutting apart a diff. I want to buy off the shelf honda civic axles and then just pop them in like they do in the car. That way I got spares for my car and if I break one I can get it warranteed.
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Boostinjdm I think the cheapest thing to find those splines IS gonna be snagging a diff.
If you can find a place to do internal splines as cheap as you can find and snag a diff PLEASE let us know!
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That sounds like a challenge. I'm pretty sure I'll fail though.
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That sounds like a challenge. I'm pretty sure I'll fail though.
don't be surprised...Why not try it engineers way and kill 2 birds with one stone? Have one custom welded cv is all, could easily have a spare tho...