Author Topic: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion  (Read 80760 times)

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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2017, 12:12:36 PM »
debating on the shock in this config or like i had it before but leaning hard on this direction as it appears to have to be the most benificial
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #151 on: February 24, 2017, 04:57:38 PM »
Brian,I hope we both are close enough friends for me to say this without pissing you off but do you think you might need to step back for a bit,clear your mind and think this rear layout over a bit? My front arms on the new buggy fall into that category. I should have taken a week off doing them,bought shorter shocks/bypasses and I woyld have been a lot happier. (Guess what is already CADded up for when  I get a bit more time.)
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #152 on: February 24, 2017, 05:14:21 PM »
i am not sure exactly what you mean so spit it out? friendship or not ( not much piss's me off and you know that) i value honest opinions so let it rip lol the lower is a bit gawdy and as far as shocks go that is what i have and trying to keep these 2.5 airs at 1.5 to 1 ratio. i did buy enough 1.5 tube to build a complete new chassis and decided to guinny pig this one. already have a list of design changes so like i said spit it out
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 06:33:43 PM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #153 on: February 24, 2017, 05:16:30 PM »
and after seeing enemy's bend the cage design is first on the list. the nose is in for a change too for better shock angle and rear as well as i like the shocks in board like this but more to the outside
« Last Edit: February 24, 2017, 05:24:46 PM by dsrace »
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #154 on: February 24, 2017, 08:13:15 PM »
OK,my take. Lower arm is unnecessarily wide at frame/too much bracing. A.75:1 ratio would be ample for strength. In other words if arm is 24" long then a arm mount spread at frame of 18" would be ample. Simple triangulation from front pivot to rear heim is also more than adequate.

 Upper arm spread,IMO is too narrow at frame pivots. Again ,something in the area of .65:1 would be the right ballpark. However,I'd run the shock thru the upper arm and that would make the wider mounting work well. The upper arm gets a lot less loading than the lower and just needs minimal reinforcement.

 I see those double adjuster in the pic and that was a very ,very good addition to the design of the rear hub carriers!!!!!!!!!!!

 LMAO,ya my paint skills suck.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #155 on: February 24, 2017, 08:18:04 PM »
Red is lower arm and this shows upper in whatever the hell that color is.  ;D ;D
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline Punkur67

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #156 on: February 24, 2017, 09:36:26 PM »
Red is lower arm and this shows upper in whatever the hell that color is.  ;D ;D
Ohhh. Are those the new King shocks? Haha
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #157 on: February 24, 2017, 09:53:37 PM »
yup,latest and greatest!
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2017, 10:19:31 AM »
i could mount the shock on the outside of the frame but.....that poses a problem with wheel travel as it is a 14" stroke shock. however i will go look at that as it is an interesting thought. as far as the spread number/ratio's you posted i agree. those numbers work great for the front and have proved to work well on the rear in your busa rail. i know you have applied them to you offroad v8 build as well. i have always liked the look and principal of the formula 1 lower control arms and if you look at the pic i included they are close to a 45* angle. now the later years don't use a 3 point at the frame design. i have seen that design however but i believe it's an older design however they don't hit or up root trees lol i am not using rear steer either however interesting thought lol

the lower control arm i have built has a 45* third arm going forward. it does not look proportionately correct with the rest of it. my rod length is 28" on the main link which is almost straight out and 1.5" od .25" wall, the rest is 1.25" od .120 wall. that is what i called gawdy looking but that load is what i was aiming for. as it has proven to work well on enemy's and carls rails. now as you can see in the pics........my upper has a narrower mounting point at the frame because of the starter. if i had a mendi with a starter on top of the bell housing i would have a much larger stance. i admit that bracing on the top is excessive but i like the way it looks and because of the narrower stance i figured it needed a little extra bracing.

i decided to try this rear end using 3/4" chromoly heims. those double adjusters are called jack screws. they too are 3/4" chromoly and i really wanted to be able to make quick and easy adjustments. when i build the next chassis i prob will be using a trans with a top mount starter giving me plenty of room! now from all my years of designing and using multi link rear ends i have learned ( the hard way once lol) that the lower lateral rods take more load than the upper lateral rod.  as you can see in the one pic it folded however it folded up not down. so i have always taken that as the carrier wants to rotate opposite of the wheel. that was the last time i used aluminum lateral rods btw. this is diff from a multi link. i am def open to ideas and this is the chassis to try them out on as it is a guinea pig lol

also i have worked on car suspension for about 26 years now. the interesting thing i have always noticed is with 4 cyl cars the lower control arm stance is narrower than a v6 or v8 front wheel drive. on the v8 or v6 the frame stance is actually much wider than the arm is long and there is a 45* or 40* pitch for lateral support. i always assumed that was also because the upper was a strut.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 11:19:58 AM by dsrace »
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #159 on: February 25, 2017, 10:22:30 AM »
the starter and in front of it,,,,, the bell housing are in my way of a wider stance for the upper at this time. short of mounting the upper to the engine block i am not sure how i would get that extra space. i would pre fer it.  hmmmmm i wonder....i'll have to check just had an idea
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Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2017, 12:31:40 PM »
ya that won't work lol the bell housing and starter are in the way so that's it for the upper at this point. as for the lower yep it's over kill and with that .75 to 1 on a 28" arm length ( center of heim to center of heim) then if i came straight out that would be 45* towards the front which is what i have on the front section. 21" spread. the rear section of the lower is 13" spread and the upper has only a 10" spread which is a 26" long rod. the rear has a 2* neg camber pitch at full bump at this point based on a usable 22" wheel travel which will leave me with 4" gc but that will be determined by shock placement so if left with 20" then gc at full bump goes up. and no matter what i always want 3 points of connection at the frame on the lower. personal preference.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2017, 12:35:01 PM by dsrace »
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Offline Enemy

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2017, 02:42:30 PM »
Thats it, I'm backroading it tonight to check this out..
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Offline Carlriddle

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #162 on: February 26, 2017, 04:43:17 AM »
Thats it, I'm backroading it tonight to check this out..
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Danger ranger in route to get in the car door. This could go sooooo wrong.
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Offline fabr

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #163 on: February 26, 2017, 09:37:47 AM »
i could mount the shock on the outside of the frame but.....that poses a problem with wheel travel as it is a 14" stroke shock.Cut those babies down. I think Fox and King both offer that service still. Maybe not but if so,you could get just what you need and likely make mounting them a LOT easier.    however i will go look at that as it is an interesting thought. as far as the spread number/ratio's you posted i agree. those numbers work great for the front and have proved to work well on the rear in your busa rail. i know you have applied them to you offroad v8 build as well. i have always liked the look and principal of the formula 1 lower control arms and if you look at the pic i included they are close to a 45* angle.Yes,45* is optimal for strength-agreed. now the later years don't use a 3 point at the frame design. i have seen that design however but i believe it's an older design however they don't hit or up root trees lol i am not using rear steer either however interesting thought lol The middle link does very little actually,IMO

the lower control arm i have built has a 45* third arm going forward. it does not look proportionately correct with the rest of it. my rod length is 28" on the main link which is almost straight out and 1.5" od .25" wall, the rest is 1.25" od .120 wall. that is what i called gawdy looking but that load is what i was aiming for. I see your point and don't disagree with your thinking but I do believe it is a bit overkillas it has proven to work well on enemy's and carls rails. now as you can see in the pics........my upper has a narrower mounting point at the frame because of the starter. the upper arm is my true concern-I think you need to find a way to widen the frame mounting points somehow. if i had a mendi with a starter on top of the bell housing i would have a much larger stance. i admit that bracing on the top is excessive bracing is not really excessive as it will make a strong arm but the frame mounting points have me concerned.but i like the way it looks and because of the narrower stance i figured it needed a little extra bracing.

i decided to try this rear end using 3/4" chromoly heims. those double adjusters are called jack screws. they too are 3/4" chromoly and i really wanted to be able to make quick and easy adjustments. without those double adjusters it would be a bear to attach the hub plate and they will allow very eay toe adjustments. I like it! but a double heim bottom arm with a single heim on the top does the same thing and is also amply strong. when i build the next chassis i prob will be using a trans with a top mount starter giving me plenty of room! now from all my years of designing and using multi link rear ends i have learned ( the hard way once lol) that the lower lateral rods take more load than the upper lateral rod.  as you can see in the one pic it folded however it folded up not down. so i have always taken that as the carrier wants to rotate opposite of the wheel. I don't believe there are any rotational forces acting on it unless a link bends that was the last time i used aluminum lateral rods btw. this is diff from a multi link. i am def open to ideas and this is the chassis to try them out on as it is a guinea pig lol

also i have worked on car suspension for about 26 years now. the interesting thing i have always noticed is with 4 cyl cars the lower control arm stance is narrower than a v6 or v8 front wheel drive. on the v8 or v6 the frame stance is actually much wider than the arm is long and there is a 45* or 40* pitch for lateral support.I agree with your thinking on this pretty much i always assumed that was also because the upper was a strut.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 09:44:40 AM by fabr »
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Offline dsrace

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Re: turbo 1300 to turbo 2300 conversion
« Reply #164 on: February 26, 2017, 11:04:32 AM »
gawd damit lol i was concerned about the uppers before but now you have me more concerned lol  i do see your point and in person none the less. i did use .120 wall for the frame member that the uppers attach too and my double gusseted tabs to spread the load. one thing you can't see is the side of the rear tabs are actually welded to the back of the chassis as well as the horizontal frame member .......thought was to spread the twisting load. actually need to make taller carriers to get that spread higher but the starter makes that impossible. a 5 link rear end would be a breeze in this case no doubt but i want a dual a-arm. i am still looking at a way to widen the top. i do plan on ls before st a at some point just to test and tune and hit a few trees to check the rear. the lower is over kill no doubt but i like it. i have ideas to tone it down when i do the next one. told the wife i wasn't building anymore but and she never believed me sooooo...........ya shit happens  rofl rofl rofl rofl  you are correct a single point at the top is strong enough vs the double i went with but that single point would have to be right above the front lower to get the actual use out of the jack screws or it would pivot correctly for easy toe change it would effect camber and toe at the same time which is why i went this way.
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