got the red rail home.

[dsrace]

I will spend the next couple nights testing/adjusting the left front individually. One might be worse then the other.  Or if I get lucky for once on this project it will be better then the rt side.

[fabr]

Is it just the location of the steering arms or is the issue the inner pivot points /rack location relationship causing the issue?

[dsrace]

Hard to explain.  Its a combination of angles. In this case the a arms are pivoting on a rake that creates an arc. Normally if your toeing in you would raise the tie rod but this is opposite. The rack pivot points are in the wrong location. Basically if I could make longer arms and use the center travel it would be fine but at its extremes it goes wild. Currently a 10" stroke shock, an 8.5 would be great but not going to happen.

[fabr]

I see the rack ends are not in line with the a arm mounts. Would adding a spacer to lengthen the rack width cure the issue? I wouldn't want to do it that way with that style of rack though.

[dsrace]

When I first built this I had it controllable on the pavement. Once he set it down at the farm and bent something it has never been right, not even after building 2 new sets of a arms and diff spindles. I have never figured it out and longer a arms would simply make the track width too wide imo. So pushing the front end to 20" of travel from 18" was a mistake. Thats what the 10" stroke coil overs are from. Originally had 2.0 fox Air in the 8.5" stroke.


So, about your idea on basically a rack spreader,  not a bad idea installed longer clevis, for Scott's last 2 trips. He had them made locally out of 4130 chromolly or atleast special them that way. Didnt fix the problem completely and he bent the clevis. In the pic, I cut the shank in half to get past the bent section. Basically with an 1/8" of original length. 


The issue is the a arms are pivoting in a multi directional motion that the rack isn't happy with to the extreme angles. I modified both tie rods last night and put the wheels back on. Going to stroke the front end as a whole tonight and see where it is at. I was going to adjust the left side separately as I did the right but, my gut says, I'm simply wasting too much time on a lost cause.

I'll know for sure tonight.

[fabr]

It toes out at full droop and inat full bump? Is that correct?

[dsrace]

no. i assembled the front end w/o shocks using just the limit straps. the c/o shocks are listed as 10" stroke but with the coil carrier on they are actually only 9.5" usable stroke. i always forget that about coil overs.  the limit straps suck the front end down or the wheel up 1". i know they can stretch but over time but these are old and eat 1". with wheel one and front end aligned to properly map the front end but with loose bolts and jamb nuts. i mapped the front end to know for sure. the drivers wheel is the worst of it for some reason. cannot figure out why and don't care at this point. i know from experience with this style front end that even with 1" total toe in, on the pavement ( if you gun it and then let off the throttle ) is barely felt and no issues keeping it straight. not saying that is the correct design and the reason i completely re designed them. with a 9.5" usable stroke you truly only get 19" of wheel travel. i moved one 1/8" washer from the bottom to top of the stack before the below measurements. as many know, 1/8" tie rod location change makes a bigger diff then most think!

 i mapped a true 20" wheel stroke, not accounting for the limit straps with 4" gc left. i know it won't see the last inch of the 20" of wheel travel but i was there so i mapped it anyway.

instantly goes toe in.    note- using the Stanley alignment checker thing a ma bober
1"- 7/8"
2"- 1 1/8"
3"-1 3/8"
4"- 1.5"
5"- 1.75"
6"- 1.75"
7"- 1.75"
8"- 2"
9"- 2"
10"- 1.75"
11"- 1.5"
12"- 1.5"
13"- 1 3/8"
14"-1"
15"- 5/8"
16"- 1/4"
17"- 0
18"- 0
19"- toe out- 1/4"
20"- toe out- 7/8"

technically, i could align it with .5"  to .75" of toe out reducing total toe in but adding .5"/.75"to total toe out at 19" of wheel stoke. i don't ever want to see this front end bottom the front shocks out, but, it is always possible in a bad situation.  toe out is no good at all imo!  have a saturn vue eps, just need a controller.  i think i can add it to the front end which would lighten the feel of the bump steer. honestly i don't think 2" of toe in will be horrible in the sand. its damn sure not good! but still controllable imo.

[fabr]

I know you don't wish to spend any more $$ than needed but I found this  https://www.performancetrends.com/SuspAnzr.htm was the best $299(now) I ever spent many years ago. What you did in hours and hours can be done in minutes once familiar with the software which is very easy and intuitive. I found it invaluable. The time you spent mapping it out could have been better spent with the learning curve of the suspension analyzer.I will never ever again do a front geometry design or analysis without it.

As a side note you are ,IMO,cycling the front end ,as you are, with a jack (or a cherry picker, etc.)is the correct way with the tires resting on the ground thereby taking into account the slop in heims. I've seen a lot of people raise the car to full droop and place it on stands and then using a cherry picker or whatever to cycle the suspension. That will definitely not work. 

On the big buggy I found that I had to mount the rack within .050 of what the analyzer said or the results were a geometry disaster. Yes,very small changes in position of all mounting points make massive toe change results.  The point I am making is that it is very difficult ,as you know,to get a proper working suspension.

[fabr]

Have you toyed yet with the rack position? I'm betting you can improve the toe change by either raising/lowering or moving it fore/aft  or a combination of both .  There again I find the suspension analyzer program very,very useful and time saving.

[dsrace]

We actually have discussed the analyzer before. I had intended to purchase a set..

I abandoned this suspension design for these very reasons. I refined it and eventually got it down to 1" total toe in and 0 toe out. However, I was not able to ( in good conscience) tell anyone my front end had 0 bump steer with that design. That is what spawned the new design and ita a solid design that is easy to tune with out bump.  That analyzer would be very handy once all the measurements were added to it.

I have approx 20 hrs in this front end now.  That includes removing corroded shock bolts. Absolutely no idea how that happen but those zink plated grade 8 bolts were oxidized enough it took a 3 lb hammer to get them out. To complicate that, some how some way, one lower shock bolt (grade 8 -1/2" ) bolt was ever so slightly bent. Had to drill out the 1/2" shock mount passages to clean that all up. I didn't think I was going to get that corroded bent bolt out. All but 1 heim were low carbon steel , w/o liners so all of those were wore out 10 years ago.  75% of them sounded like baby rattles they were so shot. Now, all chromoly , all lined self lhbricationg heims. Once removing the extended clevises for the rack ends, I measured and cut them down past the bent spots to standard length. Had to clean the threads a tiny bit on the ends.    Once I got all that replaced I clamped a straight edge to the side of the frame,, for a fixed point, to test 1 side to get a direction.

So Scott opted for 3/4" heims on one end of the tie rods at the steering arm. With that size mis alignment spacer, that leaves room for 2-1/8" washers for adjustment purposes.  . Once I cut the clevis down I had to cut the steel tie rods in half and add  adjustable splices.

So tie rods heims, were adjusted up and down, rack was moved forward and back 1.5". Caster set at 10* and -1* camber, 1/4" up on tie rod spindle side and 1" back or inwards on rack. Also noticed the front a arm heims ( at the frame) were to tight of and angle and digging into the mis spacers. That wears heims very fast etc etc. So rocked the back of the a arms out to lighten the angle and now didnt need a 1" rack spacer. That worked out quite well.

The rest of the issue can only been seen in person.

[fabr]

We actually have discussed the analyzer before. I had intended to purchase a set..

I abandoned this suspension design for these very reasons. I refined it and eventually got it down to 1" total toe in and 0 toe out. However, I was not able to ( in good conscience) tell anyone my front end had 0 bump steer with that design. That is what spawned the new design and ita a solid design that is easy to tune with out bump.  That analyzer would be very handy once all the measurements were added to it.

I have approx 20 hrs in this front end now.  That includes removing corroded shock bolts. Absolutely no idea how that happen but those zink plated grade 8 bolts were oxidized enough it took a 3 lb hammer to get them out. To complicate that, some how some way, one lower shock bolt (grade 8 -1/2" ) bolt was ever so slightly bent. Had to drill out the 1/2" shock mount passages to clean that all up. I didn't think I was going to get that corroded bent bolt out. All but 1 heim were low carbon steel , w/o liners so all of those were wore out 10 years ago.  75% of them sounded like baby rattles they were so shot. Now, all chromoly , all lined self lhbricationg heims. Once removing the extended clevises for the rack ends, I measured and cut them down past the bent spots to standard length. Had to clean the threads a tiny bit on the ends.    Once I got all that replaced I clamped a straight edge to the side of the frame,, for a fixed point, to test 1 side to get a direction.

So Scott opted for 3/4" heims on one end of the tie rods at the steering arm. With that size mis alignment spacer, that leaves room for 2-1/8" washers for adjustment purposes.  . Once I cut the clevis down I had to cut the steel tie rods in half and add  adjustable splices.

So tie rods heims, were adjusted up and down, rack was moved forward and back 1.5" Did you raise/lower rack as well?. Caster set at 10* and -1* camber, 1/4" up on tie rod spindle side and 1" back or inwards on rack. Also noticed the front a arm heims ( at the frame) were to tight of and angle and digging into the mis spacers. That wears heims very fast etc etc. So rocked the back of the a arms out to lighten the angle and now didnt need a 1" rack spacer. That worked out quite well.

The rest of the issue can only been seen in person.

I would think there is a mount point that will get it better yet. This is why I love the analyzer. In the time it takes to test physically you can test a hundred in the software.

[dsrace]

You are correct, there is a better location ! I found it rather quickly but its more time consuming and not sure I can swing that right now. That location would be in in the 2 yard dumpster outside     for now I will zip it up and go for a drive down the pavement to see how bad it feels.

[fabr]

 

[dsrace]

The rack does need to move back. I moved the spindles forward to accomplish that plus I needed to lighten the angle on the a arms forward heims. However, by doing it that way , it leaves me even more clearance to move the rack back.  Making. Spacer plate for the rack isn't a big deal at all.  Only takes 5 mins to test by mounting the tire rod outside the clevis.

[dsrace]

 So am at an end with the front end. I made new tie rods and painted them yesterday. I will run it as is for the summer as I have run out of want , to work on this any longer. I held the power steering in a couple places but it just isn't going to happen right now. Wound up taking the rack apart to clean and grease it too. The rack was mounted a touch crooked so I adjusted that as well. Hope to have the front end buttoned up tonight.

Then I will drain the coolant Nd swap out the intake gaskets. I bought a head gasket in case I don't see the point of the leak. As that doesn't start until there is some heat in the coolant, I'm better its a tiny spot or maybe a crack in the manifold, who knows.  I hope to be driving it next weekend........ then it goes in the trailer and mine comes in for tear down!!!!!!!!