Author Topic: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.  (Read 9611 times)

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Online dsrace

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a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« on: November 12, 2017, 09:49:25 AM »
so i am starting a thread as i would like to hear some opinions on diff rear end styles. this may prove to be interesting and informative. so .....anyone that has seen my build/update thread knows what i did but prob not why. why is simple as sooooooo many have pointed out over the years, i am never happy  LMAO, not true but i will let them know when i am  LMAO.

a dual a-arm rear end is self explanatory imo   



 
a multi link rear end encompasses 3 link style to 6 link style. drakart, revolt and king sand car units utilize a 3 link. several others a 5 link and then there was short sand cars that utilized a 4 link. in all my builds i started with  4 link then moved on designing 5 link then wound up utilizing 6 links for an added safety margin from the 6th link. i have never liked a 3 link rear end due to its limitations.

4 link




5 link uses a plunging axle with a 3rd inboard link.





6 link uses 2 forward links like the 4 link and 5 link but 4 inboard links rather than 2 or 3. 





i hope we all know what a trailing arm rear end is!!!  ;D ;D ;) ;) 

so now having experienced a 6 link rear end to an a-arm rear end on the same chassis, but with diff motor, i can say they drive/load the sand rails differently. it is very interesting to experience the differences! the5/ 6 link doesn't squat as much on take off but this also depends on where you connect your forward links in relation to mounting points on carriers. it actually feels like a better hole shot on dirt and pavement but spins more in the sand. the 5/6 link also tends to jump more than wheelie. i say this as this current rail always wanted to just launch when one tried to stab the throttle off a roller to try and wheelie where the now/current a-arm rear end will wheelie in the same event or as i found out full throttle off a roller is more likely to try and flip you over lol so also interesting is the way the way the articulation of the whole chassis really but def the rear end changes from 5/6 link to dual a arm. i can say i do prefer the dual a arm but it is heavier ( a tad) more indepth to set up but has a few more beneficial benefits in a sand application imo. in motion , when i ( i thought wot) hit the throttle for a sudden accel it squats in the rear and hooks up very well. the 5/6 link in sand would accel very nice but never got the same hook up and would tend to spin the tires more. now tire spin or roost is fine especially when you need to get even with people like members doug heim but not so good when you start a chain of people passing the roost down the line  LMAO i still have the video and still laugh to this day carl, fabr  LMAO on a diff note i am going to have to swap rides with allen so i can make sure i get even with doug in a way he can never return!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 now i have never ran a trailing arm rear end so i cannot personally speak on the differences there as i am not a fan of the trailing arms due to the limiting factors associated with them.   

can anyone add to this with there experiences?


















« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 09:54:44 AM by dsrace »
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 09:55:54 AM »
btw i do not recommend a 4 link rear end unless you fully understand them and are meticulous about maintenance!!!!!! 

anyone that comments on the diff between trailing arms vs other rear ends please post a pic as i do not have any of trailing arms.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 10:12:13 AM by dsrace »
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 10:10:40 AM »
 it is very interesting to experience the differences! the5/ 6 link doesn't squat as much on take off but this also depends on where you connect your forward links in relation to mounting points on carriers.

that statement in the above post is sort of like anti squat http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0406-antisquat-explained/ here is a decent article that explains this better than i can but this doesn't just apply to 3 link.

3 link independent
 


« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 10:16:55 AM by dsrace »
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 10:18:44 AM »
I'll just add this. Trailing/semi trailing arms are tough and are predominantly the rear suspension of choice for the vast majority of cars out there. Why is that? IMO,it is because many/most builders just go with the flow and build whatever is the current best/most accepted practice.  Does that make it the best? NO,but resale value seems to definitely favor trailing/semi trailing setups. Now ,with that said,I feel that a arm rear suspensions are superior to all other types in terms of toughness,suspension geometry accuracy and maintaining that accuracy throughout the wheels vertical travel.  Having a predictable camber curve that enhances handling and the natural resistance to chassis roll in a corner without a sway bar is a definite plus. Is there a negative to a arms? Yes,just as with all other types of rear suspension other than true trailing arms , the tire/wheel will move laterally throughout the vertical travel that tends to push the rear of car left or right when landing off camber . I have no issue with this personally. The other negative of a arms is that the vertical travel is limited to less than what can be had with semi trailing arms and trailing arms to a lesser degree.Honestly,I feel 3/4/5/6 link suspensions are suited only to light weight or small cars where they work fine. Where semi trailing/trailing or a arms come into play are for bigger heavier cars or for the small lightweight car where the owner wishes the benefits of the a arms superior handling.
 
 Now to comment on trailing arm/semi trailing arms in general. They both have a reputation for their raw strength and ease of designing. Wellllll, I think we have all seen ta/semi ta cars with a lot of negative camber or one side having it and the other not. How can that be if they are so tough? The truth is that a ta/semi ta arm has to be well designed of it is just a limp noodle.I always hear that ta/semi ta arms are lighter than dual arm suspensions. BS,not if both are well designed. The one true negative to a arms is the cost of all those heims!.  The absolute benefit of a arms is their massive adjustability , raw strength and lack of body roll.

In case no one can tell,I'm an a arm believer.
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but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
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loyalty to the American people."
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 10:26:13 AM »
it is very interesting to experience the differences! the5/ 6 link doesn't squat as much on take off but this also depends on where you connect your forward links in relation to mounting points on carriers.

that statement in the above post is sort of like anti squat http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0406-antisquat-explained/ here is a decent article that explains this better than i can but this doesn't just apply to 3 link.

3 link independent
 


Brian,you know I respect your knowlwdge of all these styles of rear suspensions but I have to disagree with you on any anti squat properties with ANY independent rear suspension. There can be no anti squat benefit due to the fact there is no reaction from the application of power into the chassis. It just is not there.To have  anti squat there has to be rotation of the rear end housing in relation to the chassis. We don't have that with any of the independent rear suspension styles due to the fact the center section is solid mounted  and does not allow any rotation to be input into the chassis suspension mounting points.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

Online dsrace

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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 10:36:50 AM »
I'll just add this. Trailing/semi trailing arms are tough and are predominantly the rear suspension of choice for the vast majority of cars out there. Why is that? IMO,it is because many/most builders just go with the flow and build whatever is the current best/most accepted practice.  Does that make it the best? NO,but resale value seems to definitely favor trailing/semi trailing setups. Now ,with that said,I feel that a arm rear suspensions are superior to all other types in terms of toughness,suspension geometry accuracy and maintaining that accuracy throughout the wheels vertical travel.  Having a predictable camber curve that enhances handling and the natural resistance to chassis roll in a corner without a sway bar is a definite plus. Is there a negative to a arms? Yes,just as with all other types of rear suspension other than true trailing arms , the tire/wheel will move laterally throughout the vertical travel that tends to push the rear of car left or right when landing off camber . I have no issue with this personally. The other negative of a arms is that the vertical travel is limited to less than what can be had with semi trailing arms and trailing arms to a lesser degreeHonestly,I feel 3/4/5/6 link suspensions are suited only to light weight or small cars where they work fine. Where semi trailing/trailing or a arms come into play are for bigger heavier cars or for the small lightweight car where the owner wishes the benefits of the a arms superior handling.
 
 Now to comment on trailing arm/semi trailing arms in general. They both have a reputation for their raw strength and ease of designing. Wellllll, I think we have all seen ta/semi ta cars with a lot of negative camber or one side having it and the other not. How can that be if they are so tough? The truth is that a ta/semi ta arm has to be well designed of it is just a limp noodle.I always hear that ta/semi ta arms are lighter than dual arm suspensions. BS,not if both are well designed. The one true negative to a arms is the cost of all those heims!.  The absolute benefit of a arms is their massive adjustability , raw strength and lack of body roll.

In case no one can tell,I'm an a arm believer.

nope no one can tell lol  ;D i am now a big fan of the dual a arm

 i  agree  !!
 you said The other negative of a arms is that the vertical travel is limited to less than what can be had with semi trailing arms and trailing arms to a lesser degree......can you expand on that?
 
i ask as it has always been my opinion that a dual pivot trailing arm requires huge amounts of axle plunge that can limit it's vertical travel not to mention they move the wheel forward and back during there swing increasing and decreasing wheel base but the axle plunge ,imo is more limiting of vertical travel but now this all depends on the builder and there skills as well as choice of product (manufacturer). a stock style vw tailing arm swings in two directions. again i have no real experience with trailing arms though so i really don't know.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 10:47:41 AM by dsrace »
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 10:40:04 AM »
 http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0406-antisquat-explained/  That article is correct and it also does not apply to our cars. If you will notice the car in the article has a rear end with axle tubes like all cars without independent rear suspensions have.The rear suspensionn attachment is to the axle tube and the chassis. The attachment to an axle tube is the critical difference that makes antisquat happen . It is that axle tube that allows a reaction to acceleration to happen. With independent rear suspensions the is no axle tube and therefore no reaction to the chassis can occur. Anti squat is simply not available with independent rear suspension. That is not to say that where links are mounted will not have a dramatic effect on how a car reacts to acceleration but there will be no anti squat reaction available. 
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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Online dsrace

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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 10:41:18 AM »
Brian,you know I respect your knowlwdge of all these styles of rear suspensions but I have to disagree with you on any anti squat properties with ANY independent rear suspension. There can be no anti squat benefit due to the fact there is no reaction from the application of power into the chassis. It just is not there.To have  anti squat there has to be rotation of the rear end housing in relation to the chassis. We don't have that with any of the independent rear suspension styles due to the fact the center section is solid mounted  and does not allow any rotation to be input into the chassis suspension mounting points.

thank you.....you can put whatever term to it that best fits but based on my personal experiences with locating the forward links in diff vertical positions on the same vertical plane i can feel the differences in the the way the rear end hooks in the dirt. i call it anti squat. it is more likely the way in which the load from the wheels drives/loads/pushes the chassis in a forward momentum however with dual a arm rear end seem want to lift the nose of the rail much more transferring weight in a diff way.
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 10:45:24 AM »
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ctrp-0406-antisquat-explained/  That article is correct and it also does not apply to our cars. If you will notice the car in the article has a rear end with axle tubes like all cars without independent rear suspensions have.The rear suspensionn attachment is to the axle tube and the chassis. The attachment to an axle tube is the critical difference that makes antisquat happen . It is that axle tube that allows a reaction to acceleration to happen. With independent rear suspensions the is no axle tube and therefore no reaction to the chassis can occur. Anti squat is simply not available with independent rear suspension. That is not to say that where links are mounted will not have a dramatic effect on how a car reacts to acceleration but there will be no anti squat reaction available.

i have seen that article and i understand it. like i said i have personally experienced similar effects by locating the forward/lateral links in diff positions above the horizontal plane on the same vertical line  in relation to the location at the carriers.
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 10:51:35 AM »
nope no one can tell lol  ;D

 i  agree !!
 you said The other negative of a arms is that the vertical travel is limited to less than what can be had with semi trailing arms and trailing arms to a lesser degree......can you expand on that?
 
i ask as it has always been my opinion that a dual pivot trailing arm requires huge amounts of axle plunge that can limit it's vertical travel not to mention they move the wheel forward and back during there swing increasing and decreasing wheel base but the axle plunge ,imo is more limiting of vertical travel but now this all depends on the builder and there skills as well as choice of product (manufacturer). a stock style vw tailing arm swings in two directions. again i have no real experience with trailing arms though so i really don't know.
At some point an a arm will run into just too much lateral scrub and it gets exponentionally worse as travel increases.   The HUGE benefit of a arms in addition to superior handling,IMO,is the lack of heat issues with cv's. Maintaining zero/near zero plunge is why no where near as much heat/wear with a arms.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2017, 11:00:14 AM »
thank you.....you can put whatever term to it that best fits but based on my personal experiences with locating the forward links in diff vertical positions on the same vertical plane i can feel the differences in the the way the rear end hooks in the dirt. i call it anti squat. it is more likely the way in which the load from the wheels drives/loads/pushes the chassis in a forward momentum however with dual a arm rear end seem want to lift the nose of the rail much more transferring weight in a diff way.It is,as you said above,due to mounting locations but,it is not due to antisquat.
Your experience is absolutely correct but you truly need to ditch using the term antisquat to describe what you are feeling since antisquat,by definition, is definitely not occurring. It is impossible for antisquat to occur with independent rear suspensions.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2017, 11:04:34 AM »
def a huge heat reduction there!!

the part that has always concerned me about trailing arms and at the same time amazed me is that there is very little inward support. from a hard cornering or sudden side impact  from say a mound of sand or trees lol in my case. the amazing part is the larger/heavier higher hp rails use them and they seem to last. although i have seen a few rails (personally seen) that have ripped them off the chassis's or broke the trailing arms. again though manufacture and choice of product/materials.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 11:06:23 AM by dsrace »
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2017, 11:05:12 AM »
Your experience is absolutely correct but you truly need to ditch using the term antisquat to describe what you are feeling since antisquat,by definition, is definitely not occurring. It is impossible for antisquat to occur with independent rear suspensions.



well any suggestions so a better descriptive term? cannot call it anti diver really as that pertains to the geometry of a front end with brakes.
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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2017, 11:10:19 AM »
i have seen that article and i understand it. like i said i have personally experienced similar effects by locating the forward/lateral links in diff positions above the horizontal plane on the same vertical line  in relation to the location at the carriers.
I know you understand it but I also think you are missing the critical difference of the axle tube mounting points as compared to the rear hub and no axle tube mounts. Without that axle tube connecting the hubs to the differential/sprocket there can be no antisquat reaction. The reaction is what makes antisquat occur. Now,the location of mounting points can and definitely will effect how a car reacts to acceleration/braking forces on an independent rear suspension but it is not due to any antisquat property. I know this may seem like I'm splitting hairs but using the term antisquat to describe how an independent rear suspension reacts to acceleration/braking is like calling margarine butter. Two completely different things that are not related in any way. It gets confusing when wrong terms are used .
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

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Re: a arm rear ends vs multi link vs trailing arm.
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2017, 11:16:11 AM »
def a huge heat reduction there!!

the part that has always concerned me about trailing arms and at the same time amazed me is that there is very little inward support. from a hard cornering or sudden side impact  from say a mound of sand or trees lol in my case. the amazing part is the larger/heavier higher hp rails use them and they seem to last. although i have seen a few rails (personally seen) that have ripped them off the chassis's or broke the trailing arms. again though manufacture and choice of product/materials.
That is why we see bent up ta's all the time. Most are very poorly engineered. The pros know how to do it right but most builders just wing it ,throw some tubes together with little to no understanding of how to build a light yet strong arm able to take sometimes massive loads especially in the lateral direction as you describe. A well engineered ta is very hard to bend. Most are not well engineered to say the least.
"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

 

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