I want it i need it.....its time

[fabr]

I know yours has run great for some time. Best guess where it was 9n hp before rebuild? I know 400 chp is the goal just wondering what the step up might be?

What did the builder say about breaking the bolt OFF?

that all sucksvexcept playing with the Bridgeport!

BrianN enjoys rebuilding the suby engines ..... just ask him 

Your def having a challenging time like I have been.

Outfront said my old engine S/B 320hp.  Going from 10lbs to 15lbs boost, I have heard that getting into the teens on boost will really wake up a subi.  I ran the setup for 12 years.  I wanted to go up to 17 or 18lbs (just to have bragging rights over Mike  ) but John wanted me to have a boost controller if I was going over 15lbs, I didn't want to mess with one. 

I didn't even talk to the builder, I already had the heads installed before I realized the bolt was broke.  The bolt broke off about 3/8" down into the hole, so I made a bushing on the lathe to fit the hole then used a left handed drill bit.  My wife said "They make drill bits for left handed people?"     I was nice in my reply.  

I am only going to run 10lbs boost this next trip as I don't have time to get it on a dyno.  But it will be cool to see the difference in the newer style turbo and how it spools up/ 

I bought the bridgeport from Jerry and added a DRO to it.  Still need to add the 3rd axis, just haven't had time. 3 axis all the way!! Best money ever spent for sure .

[dsrace]

I know yours has run great for some time. Best guess where it was 9n hp before rebuild? I know 400 chp is the goal just wondering what the step up might be?

What did the builder say about breaking the bolt OFF?

that all sucksvexcept playing with the Bridgeport!

BrianN enjoys rebuilding the suby engines ..... just ask him 

Your def having a challenging time like I have been.

Outfront said my old engine S/B 320hp.  Going from 10lbs to 15lbs boost, I have heard that getting into the teens on boost will really wake up a subi.  I ran the setup for 12 years.  I wanted to go up to 17 or 18lbs (just to have bragging rights over Mike  ) but John wanted me to have a boost controller if I was going over 15lbs, I didn't want to mess with one. 

I didn't even talk to the builder, I already had the heads installed before I realized the bolt was broke.  The bolt broke off about 3/8" down into the hole, so I made a bushing on the lathe to fit the hole then used a left handed drill bit.  My wife said "They make drill bits for left handed people?"     I was nice in my reply. 

I am only going to run 10lbs boost this next trip as I don't have time to get it on a dyno.  But it will be cool to see the difference in the newer style turbo and how it spools up/ 

I bought the bridgeport from Jerry and added a DRO to it.  Still need to add the 3rd axis, just haven't had time.

In response to the left handed drill bits..... https://twitter.com/CheeseheadBrian/status/1773856779572568264?t=LGMirFsseexfYdMumecTpg&s=01

[dsrace]

And Outfront won't update my ECU for 15lbs boost, said there are too many variables.  He said I should get it on a dyno.  I do understand that there are a lot of variables in play(intercooler, compression, cam, turbo, etc). 

Mike is set up for 15lbs with a tune from them, I wonder how hard it would be to copy his and update mine?  DS?  Enemy?  it is an EMS brand ECU, Stinger model.  He said that the tunes were not locked.

So truth be told, I am not a John of outfront fan.  Not saying he doesn't know what he's doing just don't agree with the way he does many things.

Now, I know big Dave bought his  turnkey engine from John, I thought Mike did too but I'm sure you can correct me on mikes engine. So based on friends personal experience and many many comments on forums and fb rail groups....... John isnt interested in really helping if you aren't spending good money. Now, my guess is that a lot of this is due to either he has paid to have tunes written for his engine builds or he himself has produced the tunes. Either way, whoever did, there are no provisions surrounding anything other then his build type. I always disagreed with the fact that Glenn old green rail didnt run an o2 sensor. Didnt see one on big daves or mikes either. Jerry's is a diff story altogether. I am no expert so I could be waaaaay off.  If there is no o2 sensor then the ecu cannot run in closed loop. As a matter of fact, he removed all sensors and actuators that were not needed as an essential system, his idea of essential. I full understand why, he's selling 5 wire turnkey engines. I believe in all the additional sensors. even though I'm not shooting for max hp, Those additional sensors activate additional safety systems that I want. 

I looked at bigdaves laptop and tuning software once. I was surprised at the tune and explained why he was having some idle issues that an adjustment of the tps improved but didn't cure. He didn't have access to the key portions of the ecu in that tuning software. Not saying  all of John's ecu's are set that way as I have no idea but John told him it was unlocked.

As far as copying mikes tune, to be installed into your ecu....... yes and no. Yes you can do it if the ecu is indeed unlocked/open source. If your both running very similar cams or same cam and the same compression ratio then yes . If your running a lower comp ratio then mike then still yes as his timing map has had timing pulled for the higher comp ratio.  Next piece of the puzzle is what else the ecu looks at but if yours is the 5 wire then all can be adjusted or should be able to adjust if 8ts a good system.. Big hurdle will be lack of an 02 sensor to tune yourself. I doubt there's an auto tune function in that ecu but even with out, as long as you can data log the run, you can live tune it. Again, you need a reliable 02 sensor for that to be possible. If your tail pipe is short then the 02 sensor reading will be worthless below a certain rpm because wind will blow up in the tail pipe and screw the reading. No big deal, tune the lower cells in your garage at home. 

So " a lot of variables "  could have many meanings. Referring to mikes engine for this, if you 2 have the same size inj's, same stroke and bore, same comp ratio or his is slightly higher, as in half to a full point higher,,if your running the same crank/cam sensors, same throttle bodies and tps.......I see no reason not to and then live tune for the fine tune. You'll need some sort of 02 sensor reading for that. If your running leaded fuel that will shorten the 02 sensors life.

[DeepBusch69]

I agree DS and I should have been more clear with my post.  I just want a "base" tune to be half way close when I do go to a tuner.  I don't have an O2 sensor and the exhaust is only 10" long.  I just didn't want to start with a blank slate. 

[fabr]

10" exhaust rules out using an O2 sensor for sure. Tuning is at best a guess though without one,IMO.

[fabr]

db69,do you know if Glenns car had an O2 sensor?

[dsrace]

I agree DS and I should have been more clear with my post.  I just want a "base" tune to be half way close when I do go to a tuner.  I don't have an O2 sensor and the exhaust is only 10" long.  I just didn't want to start with a blank slate.

Ok, if your taking it to get it tuned then your current tune is your base tune. Just tell him what work was done to the motor and that you want it tuned for how ever much boost and set the wastegate for that.  You may want to know what size injectors your running and a data sheet showing dead time/flow on them......if possible. Not sure he needs that or not. BrianN had his suby dyno'd there and might remember what he wanted.

 I thought you meant that you wouldn't have time to get it to the tuners shop ( chris at witching dyno?) And just wanting to try mikes existing tune.

[dsrace]

10" exhaust rules out using an O2 sensor for sure. Tuning is at best a guess though without one,IMO.

Wonder if dyno shops have a strap on 02 sensor the mount to the ext tip? They have to have some way of working around that or atleast i would think so.

[dsrace]

When you sent the motor in for this work, did they install dished pistons to reduce comp ratio? I ask because I thought you said a while back that it was basically an n/a motor that boost was added too. 

No matter what your existing tune will be just fine for a base map. Im just trying to wrap my head around why John wouldn't sell you the tune.

With all the work you had done, do they rate the motor for say 20 psi or 25 psi boost??      if 1t is fun then 25 is better 

[fabr]

10" exhaust rules out using an O2 sensor for sure. Tuning is at best a guess though without one,IMO.

Wonder if dyno shops have a strap on 02 sensor the mount to the ext tip? They have to have some way of working around that or atleast i would think so.

If you are talking Wichita Dyno then yes they have a tailpipe O2 sensor to put up the tailpipe as most tuner shops do.  Will it be accurate with a short pipe? Not IMO. Damn sure will not be accurate if just at the tip. It needs to be as far up the exhaust as the sensor can be placed . FWIW,I would never consider running without a decent length pipe that can have a properly located O2 sensor unless running alpha n.

On a side note,I will not likely be using Wichita Dyno again after my last tune.

Chris is a nice guy and easy to deal with BUT, the tune was crap. I had to do it over to where I had it before I took it to him. IMO,a proper exhaust with an O2 sensor and logging in the real world is the best way.

[dsrace]

I agree a wedged in 02 isn't the most accurate but better then nothing / close enough.   So it seems to me that an 02 sensor along with a flex duel sensor was added to Glenn's yellow rail about the same time. His exh was short like db69's and I seemed to remember being able to see the tip of the 02 inside it.  That is an inherit problem with a rear engine build. I'm sure there's a solution as well. 

Wichita dyno, I've heard good and concerning remarks from a large number of people. Nothing horrifying but some praise.  Where I do agree live tuning takes longer but gets you on the mark, w/o an o2 sensor thats just not possible for engine builds like outfronts.  A trip to the dyno for a very very conservative tune and thats it.

[DeepBusch69]

   fxxk

[fabr]

I'm not a fan of open loop tunes like a lot do.

[fabr]

I believe that Wichita Dyno and most shops as well tune mostly for idle and WOT such as is seen drag racing.That is pretty easy and quick to do. The attention to tuning part throttle and at various loads is very time consuming and therefore not much attention is given . All that is needed is smoothing of the cells to a nice 3d shape and it will run -OK. When the engine is usually at varying throttle and loads like we are then it becomes a bit more necessary to tune across the board so to speak.   Got home and went for a ride. Ran poorly part throttle.When I opened the tune up I found Chris had left a cell empty in the middle of the grid. It created a big funnel shape that covered the center of the grid.How/why that happened is anybodys guess but it damn sure should not have left the dyno like that. He only spent about 2 hours on the dyno. He did give me a discounted price since it usually takes 4-6 hours or so.  It was nice to see what the wheel HP was though.

[dsrace]

  fxxk

      you have run 12 years in this manner, with out any issues that took the motor out atleast.  You've been happy with it, you can continue or build longer exh. Prob have to look like a pigs tail with the available room.