DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
General Discussion => The video room => Topic started by: dsrace on August 14, 2022, 05:39:27 AM
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the entire video is sort of interesting. he does a decent job explaining the rear end design for the mass's that don't really want to understand. at 21:14 he offers his thoughts on trailing arms.
https://youtu.be/o8GavLv3Dpo
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another interesting video over all but pay attention to 6:40 where is address's shock theropy's thoughts :m
not sure if anyone remebers where the owner of shock theropy got his start in the offroad biz.
https://youtu.be/FZ0LEdmCEsY
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i want to start off by saying i have 0 issues with TA rear ends. TA ( trailing arm ) rear end designs are solid and have a lot of plus's. a arm rear ends offer more imo as well as multi link. the sxs 3 link designs are lacking in a lot of area's imo. in the Shock theropy (ST) video he mentions the rzr xp inhearant 4" toe in flaw. that is absolutely horrible and unacceptable imo. a team of engineers and that was the best they could come up with! how bad is the front end then?? i still cannot figure out why rzr put that toe link on the pro R !? it looks to be 22* or less and i cannot wrap my head around why that would be a good idea for toe adjustment! the sxs's are top heavy and roll easy, for that reason alone i personally believe the TA would be a better fit as they don't seem to want to go wider for stability. couple that with the wheel travel war they have going on, and the lack of suspension design, the TA is an even better choice. i really like that 2.0 engine rzr put out but the sxs is just sooooo ugly ( looks like japenese animae )as i find most of them. robby's design is far more appealing.
i saw that the new rzr has a claimed 24" of wheel travel and 16" of GC at ride height. as we all know, to have a usable 24" of wheel travel you will need 28" of GC at full droop. so does that mean the rzr is giving up 50% at ride height?? my guess is the rzr doesn't have a true 24" of wheel travel. if it did, it would be extremely top heavy at full droop as narrow as it would get at only 72" wide track width.
one thing that was stated by ST was that 18" of wheel travel is all one really needs, i agree. i disagree with his reasoning why he wouldn't choose a TA rear end as a team of engineers should easily be able to design the solution the telescoping cv/axle issue. now he didn't go into detail and i understand why. he is speaking to the mass's and they don't want to understand they just want to pick out the prettiest color.
robby stated in his video that 11" of travel, with a proper shock configuration, won a desert race, also that they went with 22" travel in there utv's. again , i agree , with a properly spec'd shock , this makes all the diff in the world. they are not cheap though and why he's running 4.0 shocks on speed utv's sxs's.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0KsMWDBy/b27b20a48a9e3df1f5b6f987e7f4735d.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0KsMWDBy)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tnN1LJKt/extreme-japanese-car-modification-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tnN1LJKt)
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Great vids. Some differing opinions . Not unusual. I'd buy an RG car before I'd spend a penny on a Poolaris anything honestly. RG looks to be high quality engineering and build quality , ready for battle when you get it unlike Poolaris and all other SxS with serious compromises of design.
As for the different rear suspensions , all have positives and negatives including my favorite type-A arm. RG never addressed the rear axle shaft and how much plunge was and how it is dealt with . I'd like to see a lot more about that though.
We need to sit down and discuss this stuff at LS. Way too much to type . LOL!!
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If I were in the market for a sxs I would , hands down, by the RG sxs!
I like the idea of the 2.0 4 cyl a lot but everything surrounding the engine is by far inferior to RG's build.
I agree, RG didn't address the axle plunge. Based on his testing videos alone I would say he's got it figured out , to some point. I am still baffled how a team of engineers couldn't do better then 4" toe in !!!
On another note, I contacted bo port (where my head and cam came from) to inquire about my 2.1 cam specs to correctly set mechanical timing. His response was interesting. I do not have a degree wheel nor the experience so I will run it 3/4 mile down the road to wishmans shop and pay him to while I work on other things. I know I advanced the cam 8* on the last trip just trying to stop the super heating/warping of my header. It seemed too but my trans let got noon that day. Def not an interference motor :D as i was off a min of 8* and possibly still off up to another 4 *. :m
We have a lot to catch up on our next run.!! ;D
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You have a link to engjne info for the RG?
The high egt on your engjne was likely retarded ign timing and hadnothing to do with cam timing. Regardless , if it were me i'd install it straight up and proceed from there. Ive not seen a cam ever run better with more than 4 degrees +/-.
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Btw, ST knows his stuff but hes a true snake.
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Btw, ST knows his stuff but hes a true snake.
yes he is and his buddies including revenge racing of predator sand cars.
there ins't a lot of indepth info on the motor but this seems to be fairly decent....... https://www.utvunderground.com/2021-speed-utv-4-engine-details
interesting statement about the belt ..... What about the belt life?
It’s a sore topic. Yes, the Speed UTV will have a belt, but Robby Gordon being Robby Gordon, thought of everything. You’re going to have a infrared belt temp sensor, that’s going to limit the throttle response in order to help save the belt if it notices the belt getting hot. Don’t like that? Not a big deal, push a button and go ham on that belt. Similar to what you’re used to in your daily driver with traction control, you’re going to have a button to disable the throttle limiting if the infrared sensor notices the belt is running hot.
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You have a link to engjne info for the RG?
The high egt on your engjne was likely retarded ign timing and hadnothing to do with cam timing. Regardless , if it were me i'd install it straight up and proceed from there. Ive not seen a cam ever run better with more than 4 degrees +/-.
this is also called the E bar method and the only way i have every read on how to do it. ford manual states this but in factory timing marks, the link to speedway motors adjustable timing gears for the 2.3 states this as well and stinger perfromance also has a write up about it. so that is how i set the hot pinto cam that was noooooo good and swapped out for a stock ranger roller cam. i know we mechanically advanced the cam 8* at the dunes after jon told me he had to as well when it was on his engine. so, here is BO's response from bo port.........
Hi Brian,
As you are finding out anything other than degreeing the cam in with a degree wheel is a guess. The 2.1 needs to be degreed to 112 degree intake lobe centerline. Your shop will be able to do this. You or they will need a solid lifter installed on #1 intake to degree the cam. Let me know if you need any more information and hope you get it running better.
Bo
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forward to 18:36
https://youtu.be/1ZRQamXaa7c
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i just watched the entire engine walk around in that video......... i keep hearing very very suttle hints of yamaha said no on a motor, or remember the remarks polaris made or looks what texton did to our design :m i starting to think there may be a revenge theme involved with this design! would love to see the same crew design a 2 ltre dry sumped!! ;D ;D
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I'll watch the vids tonite. Are you pretty welo versed in what the effects are when advancing/retarding a cam?
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I'll watch the vids tonite. Are you pretty welo versed in what the effects are when advancing/retarding a cam?
i am going to say, to a min point. i understand retarding adds top and and advancing adds bottom end. diff cam profiles for super charged or turbo engines, but that's really the jist of it . read some info but never put it to memory.
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based on what i had read about the effects of a cam retarded too far was that it could let fuel into the manifold which would cause super heating at light throttle as the fuel was still burning rather then exhausting. the articles stated these effects would dwindle at rpm. that was last fall and a lot of time has past since then.
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a guy was told his cam has to be installed retarded 8* or he'll loose power. the dyno guy showed him this was true and asked what cam.......not the full description but the cliff notes to explain what i am going to copy and paste.
"There is absolutely no way that a retarded cam, especially as drastic as 8 degrees will produce more power than the same cam installed straight up. (Especially throughout the entire RPM range) Most high performance cams are ground with 2 to 3 degrees advance, primarily to take up for slack in the timing chain and sprockets.
A quick rule of thumb is that the cam will make slightly more power at low RPM when advanced (but will loose the same amount of power at higher RPM) and a retarded cam will produce slightly more power at high RPM (again, producing slightly less power at lower RPM levels). Advancing or retarding the camshaft timing does not necessarily produce MORE power, it just changes the power output at upper or lower RPM levels. It is really just a trade-off.
If the subject engine does not follow these rules, then the camshaft is not the correct one of optimum performance. Time to experiment with some other cam profiles.
Bill"
i am posting this as i thought it was an interesting statement. been glancing here and there today and yesterday when i have tiny bits of free time.
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what bo of bo port posted online. also interesting ;)
BOPORT 2.3 ford camshafts are dyno developed cams, all of which are specifically designed turbo cams with target purposes. At this point in time we do not include "cam cards" with our cams. We have worked hard to develop these camshafts and they are dyno proven to outperform most offerings available today. We dont feel the need to educate other manufactures and enthusiasts at the expense of our hard work and investments.
What we do include is the important information about each cam's running characteristics, valve lift (to ensure the cam will mechanically fit), and we also publish recommended spring pressure requirements to ensure stable valvetrain operation with our cam lobe profiles. All camshafts are designed to be installed "straight-up" in terms of timing, the advance or retard is built into the cam. For ultimate performance of your BOPORT cam, we recommend you dial your camshaft in with use of an adjustable cam gear and compare these timing changes on a dynometer or race track.
All BOPORT camshafts are reduced base circle by design, which in hydraulic applications requires your HLA's (lifters) to be shimmed upwards to take up this distance. We include a shim kit with every hydraulic cam we sell, engineered for a perfect fit. Special attention must be paid to ensure proper oil flow to the HLA's after shimming. Which is accomplished by extended groove HLA's designed specifically for shimming. Factory narrow groove HLA's will not work properly. We offer these extended groove HLA's at a discounted price when purchased with our cams. Also included is complete instructions with diagrams to assist you with the installation.
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Pure BS. 20 minutes swith a cam. analyzer and all that info .magically appeaes.
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Pure BS. 20 minutes swith a cam. analyzer and all that info .magically appeaes.
yes i agree but what i found interesting about his various statements was...... All camshafts are designed to be installed "straight-up" in terms of timing
and in the same post continue to state ....... For ultimate performance of your BOPORT cam, we recommend you dial your camshaft in with use of an adjustable cam gear and compare these timing changes on a dynometer or race track.
so either they are designed to be set at straight up or not. i did exactly that and it appears that it has been retarded 8* this whole time. he even told me in his email that a degree ring is the only way to set them but still has that posted on his site.
on a side note, scott, steve and that utah group that run the 2.3 lima as i do , all retard there cams 4* so they can run 6k rpm. if they leave them stock ( set straight up) then on the stock cam they peter out about 5200 rpm. they loose bottom end of course and know it but with the stock cam the only way to make any power above 5200 rpm is to retard the cam or so i have been told. its that noticable with that group and all in that group run there's that way.
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Boport is a seller of parts and as such is more than willing to spew BS,IMO. If you want to know what works for your particular needs /wants then it needs dyno time. Real dyno time , not some snake oil dyno BS as most are providing. It takes a lot of cam and cam timing and ignition timing maximization across all rpm ranges and that takes a very knowledgeable operator. Those are apparently few and far between. The other issue is the cost of said dyno time. This stuff takes many hours of testing-proper testing. So far I haven't been impressed . IMO, really good data logs and interpretation of them are as good or better for us than spending the $$$$ at the dyno with a rather uninterested operator.
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Mine will be set using a degree ring. That will get me as close as possible to 0. I don't have a degree ring but wishman does a miles south.
You are correct, he sells parts. He shouldn't be stating the cams are designed to be set straight up if they are not. If mine is retarded 8* as I believe......thats not even close for having been set straight up.
Wish is an engine builder and tuner. He personally uses megasquirt and e85 on his builds. Last build was a 5.0 mustang body style and I believe 1000hp v8. Not sure how I could get my rail on his chassis dyno though. 84" width limit!!!!!
I agree that the majority of tuners want the quick money and rush through. They narrow their field of view and tune for that narrow path through the fuel map lol sadly, some have experienced this more then others.
Data logs are you best friend per application per build per driver. Best way to fine tune but in most cases, a quick trip to the dyno for the "best" base tune you can get......well that HOPEFULLY speeds up the process.
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FWIW,I always install cams with the degree ring straight up to begin with and check P/V clearances. Then I set the cam at 4-8 degrees retarded and check P/V clearance. Same with advanced 4-8. That way I am assured of adequate P/V clearance at whatever I deem best with testing. On my engines I am usually limited to 4*.. All you will gain with moving the ICL will be about a 400 rpm shift up/down the peak torque rpm. I'm not convinced the 800 rpm shift that the ID guys say they feel is all reality. But I won't say it's impossible using really bad cams to begin with.
Boparts is just blowing smoke about his cams and is also covering his ass. I do not like that in a supplier.
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FWIW,I always install cams with the degree ring straight up to begin with and check P/V clearances. Then I set the cam at 4-8 degrees retarded and check P/V clearance. Same with advanced 4-8. That way I am assured of adequate P/V clearance at whatever I deem best with testing. On my engines I am usually limited to 4*.. All you will gain with moving the ICL will be about a 400 rpm shift up/down the peak torque rpm. I'm not convinced the 800 rpm shift that the ID guys say they feel is all reality. But I won't say it's impossible using really bad cams to begin with.
Boparts is just blowing smoke about his cams and is also covering his ass. I do not like that in a supplier.
well i know i have plenty of clearance for 8* retarded :m :nw i only say that as i advanced it 8* on my last dune trip 1 hrs before the trans blew. i did so because the exh manifold was glowing under light load cruising speeds.
so i did not set mine with a degree ring because every site i looked at all said set using the ebar method. bo port, stinger performance, turbo ford and speedway motors where i bought the adjustable cam gear from. clearly that is not the way to set bo ports cams! he of course has admited this in an email now.