DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: dsrace on August 30, 2020, 08:13:04 AM
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i have had some concerns about my oil psi since i built the motor. i have read many posts on the ford t 2.3 forums that seem to be consistent. on cold start up i see 50 psi at idle. once at operating temp i dip down to 18to20 psi at idle ( currently). those numbers are using an oil filled psi gauge. i have an electronic sensor for my dash gauge and just figured out yesterday that it reads 6 psi higher than the oil filled gauge. i tried a speedway branded non oil filled gauge and it showed the electric sensor was off 8 psi but the needle was shaky. i then swapped it out for the oil filled and it shows 6 psi difference. the reason i am looking as i have never had as high of a cold start oil psi as i thought it should have. there are a number of people that state 60-70 psi on cold start. my concern is the 18 - 20 psi hot and i don't see more than 45-50 psi at rpm hot. touch the throttle at idle and the pressure jumps instantly so the pump is working in that sense. now one thing i have to say is that when i switched to the severe duty amsoil 10w40 that i dropped about 2 -4 ish psi on hot idle. so here's the scary part lol on the last 2 trips, stopping at the top of a dune, i saw my electric gauge drop to 15 psi and now i know that was reading 6 psi high that means i actually dipped down to 9 psi hot idle! this only happened a few time and after a spirited run so it was def hot. i do not run an oil cooler but may add one.
i am going to pull the engine and swap the pump this winter to be sure but the info i copy and pasted below, is the most in depth write up i have found pertaining to the ford 2.3 pumps. i am running the M86e as it was listed as stock turbo 2.3. i had read several posts early on stating to run the stock pump vs the n/a higher flowing pump as the turbo didn't like the additional oil. enemy brought up a good point and that turbo tech has come a long way. the guys stating that ( for the most part) are running 35 year old stock bushing turbo's and probably stock return lines. ford manual says 40-60 is the acceptable range above 2k rpm, no idle psi spec. im running sustained higher rpms than a stock engine.
either way, if the relief is indeed supposed to be 60 psi, i do not see 60 psi at rpm or cold idle, from day 1 so i wonder if the spring was wrong from the get go. yes i bought the melling pump new, not remanned. it didn't come with any gaskets and the ford book doenst show one. i didn't use any gasket sealer either. both surfaces appeared to be flat. didn't see any gaskets on the pump when i tore it down but that was a long time ago and there may have been and i didn't notice.
interesting info none the less.
From Neil Emiro:
OK, I've promised that I would post up some technical data on Ford 2.3L Oil Pumps that I gathered through email conversations with Melling engineers. It should be noted that there are many different pumps for the 2.3L. For this discussion, we'll look at the very common M86E, M127, and the M86CHV (High volume). The M127 is a completely different design than all the rest.
Let's get into the numbers. Here are the theoretical rotor displacements:
M127 0.0086 gal/rev
M86E 0.0086 gal/rev
M86CHV 0.0107 gal/rev
The M-86CHV has 25% more capacity. This equates to 21.4 gpm at 2000 rpm and 64.2 gpm at 6000 rpm. The actual pump output will be less due to volumetric efficiency and flow exhausted over the relief valve. All of the pumps (OEM and Melling) use a 60 psi relief valve setting.
OK, so why the change to the M127 pump later on? It costs more, is bigger/heavier, and flat out looks ugly. So why?
"The M-127 design was issued to reflect changes Ford made to the OE oil pump when the oil pan design was changed to aluminum. The volume is the same as the M-86E although the rotor set is a newer more efficient design. The M-127 pump should be fine so long as the fit and location of the pick-up tube present no problems."
Hmmm, I still don't know how much more efficient, but there might be some possibilities there. I am using one of these in my current 2.3L turbo engine (86 block) and SVO steel pan.
I had various questions related to pressures at different speeds, etc. At this point another engineer jumped in:
"Actually, I had a minute and I like a challenge, so I jumped right in...
The pressure at idle is established by the clearances within the engine, the theoretical displacement of the pump, the volumetric efficiency of the pump and the viscosity of the oil. Pressure at higher speeds is established by the pressure regulating valve.
About the only thing that we can be sure of in all of this, is the theoretical displacements of the Melling pumps and the pressure regulating valves that they use.
Relatively small changes in viscosity (via temperature or grade of oil...) can cause relatively large changes in pressure at idle.
The temperature of the engine proper (block, head, etc...), as well as the materials (iron v aluminum...) that are used, have a great deal of impact upon pressure at idle.
So much for idle...
Assuming that the diameters of the pistons that are used in the pressure regulating valves are the same size, then the pressure at higher speeds is established by the rate and the free length of the spring. If you want higher pressure, either use a spring that has a higher rate, use a spring that has the same rate but has a greater free length or shim the existing spring.
By the way, the pumps operate at half engine speed, so the displacement per engine revolution is half of the theoretical displacement of the pump..."
OK, sounds good. What is I wanted, say 15psi or so more than I am getting. I know I can shim the pressure relief valve, but by how much? This is common practice, but it always seems like a crap shoot as to how much to shim it for how much pressure you get. Is there a general rule of thumb for this (realizing that relief valve piston designs are different on different pumps)?
"To gain 15 psi all that should be required is a 1/8 thick. The M-86E would require a shim/washer 0.141" thick."
An article that they referred me to about flow vs. pressure. It's Chevy material, but it's all relevant to our discussion. Here's the direct link: http://stockcarracing.com/techarticles/134_0309_pump/index.html
Oil Pumps for Street Stock Race Engines
Flow Does Matter
By Sleepy Gomez
On a stock-type oiling system in a Street Stock level race engine, the softball-sized iron nugget buried at the bottom of the engine is the part that keeps it alive. The right oil pump can make your engine live longer. It can also free up horsepower that can be used at the rear wheels.
There are several oil pump performance variations available for stock power level engines. The first is the stock pump. It began its job when the engine was fired up at the automaker's plant. It is really a reasonable oil pump, in most cases, for stock engine classes. It may have fed lubricant to the engine for 100,000 miles (or more). Like other parts in an engine, it can wear out, and it's inexpensive insurance to replace a stock pump.
The next variation is a high-volume pump. This is sometimes referred to as a "high-pressure" pump. Actually, these two descriptions are not equivalent. The high-volume pump is designed to pump a higher volume of oil at the same pressure. In doing so, it may raise the oil pressure because a higher volume pumped into the same oil gallery space will cause a pressure increase. The intent of this design is to increase the oil flow. Increased flow is necessary in an engine where the working clearances of the bearings are larger. A point to remember is that the engine's bearings are oil-cooled.
All stock-type pumps have a pressure relief valve. This is necessary because cold, thick oil at start-up, or another restriction such as a plugged oil filter, can cause a serious problem. Once upon a time, long ago, I only had to blow two oil filters off of an engine before I found out that the relief valve was stuck. The relief valve prevents damage to the pump drive system by releasing any excess oil pressure back into the oil pan, instead of trying to force it through the engine's oil distribution channels. Because this drive system includes the camshaft and ignition drive on most stock engines, an overload on the oil pump can cause complete engine failure. A stripped cam gear from a seized oil pump is not a pretty sight. With a high-pressure pump, the relief valve will release pressure at a higher point than a stock unit, but it will still only have the volume of the stock pump.
Stock Oil Flow
I spent some time with two engineers from Melling Engine Parts, Mike Osterhaus and Cal Rydjord (sounds like Richard), discussing oil pumps for stock power level engines to get their tech advice. Melling is the largest manufacturer of new and replacement performance oil pumps in the United States.
Beginning with the stock pump, Rydjord felt it was adequate for most engines in stock-type racing classes. He pointed out that most Street Stock and entry-level race car engines have a stock, or possibly rebuilt, bottom end. Usually, the bearing clearances are stock. Therefore, even to 7,000 rpm, a stock pump has sufficient volume and pressure to supply oil to the engine.
Rydjord also offered his exception to an old adage. "The rule of 10 psi oil pressure for every 1,000 rpm is not really necessary. At one time, given tooling and manufacturing of the day, this may have been necessary. Today, while safe, it is overkill. Winston Cup engines live with only 50 pounds of oil pressure at 9,000 rpm."
To illustrate the extreme of reducing oil pressure, Rydjord related a story of a Pro Stock drag racer (upward of 1,200 hp) who, when needing a few more hundredths for a tight race, adjusted the dry sump oil pump to run with less than 40 pounds of pressure for the last half of the quarter. The less work the pump had to do, the more power went to the rear wheels. Subsequent teardowns revealed no damage to the bearings. This is not meant to imply one should arbitrarily reduce oil pressure, but to show that oil pressure by itself is not the end of the story.
High Pressure Pumps
Our discussion then moved to high-pressure pumps. These are really stock-volume pumps with a stronger spring backing up the pressure relief valve. This means that an oil pump must raise its pressure to a higher level before the relief valve opens and dumps oil back into the pan. If this extra pressure is not needed, then the engine is using horsepower to pump oil to a peak pressure that is unnecessary--thus resulting in less power to the wheels. An additional loss is that windmilling the unneeded oil back into the pan aerates the oil and raises its temperature. A higher oil temperature can also affect the engine by raising the water temperature.
Rydjord pointed out that the use of a high-pressure pump would not affect the idle oil pressure. It would only show up at an rpm where the pump capacity overcomes the pressure relief valve. He said that although each engine might be different, the relief valve would probably start to open around the oil volume that could be used at 3,500 engine rpm. So, consider that too much oil pressure wastes horsepower.
I asked Osterhaus about using high-volume pumps in stock level racing engines. He responded, "The stock pump can take care of the bearings on most stock or near-stock engines. There are two good instances where a high-volume pump should be used. In a case where the bearing clearances have been opened up, allowing more oil to flow through, the higher-volume [pump] would be a benefit. This situation is not as prevalent now as in the past. Most engine builders seem to tighten up the bearing clearances now. The other situation is when an oil cooler, or some other restriction, is added to the oil system. Then, additional flow is needed."
In my experience, I use a high-volume oil pump whenever I use an oil accumulator. The high-volume pump can refill the accumulator faster while still having enough capacity to supply oil to the engine. In case you haven't heard me say it before, I think an oil accumulator should always be used on a circle track race engine with a stock pan.
Use a Big-Block Pump?
Osterhaus and I had spoken before about the use of a big-block Chevy oil pump on a small-block engine. My long-held opinion was that the big-block pump was costly overkill. I had thought it pumped too much oil, therefore heating up the oil, and was thus unnecessary on a stock-type engine.
Osterhaus pointed out that the smallblock Chevy pump had 7 teeth on each of its gears, whereas the big-block unit had 12 teeth per gear. It was his opinion that the greater number of teeth of the big-block pump would smooth out the flow impulses of the pump. He noted these larger impulses from fewer teeth (of the stock, small-block pump) could affect the Chevy distributor because they are on the same drive. The impulses from the pump could randomly affect timing (creating spark scatter) to any given cylinder by a small degree.
But Rydjord noted, "I've never heard any specific complaints about these impulses affecting the ignition. But, yes, there would be a difference in the severity of the impulses between 7 and 12 impulses per camshaft revolution (half crank speed). I really don't know how much difference it might make."
When asked about the capacity of the Chevy big-block pump, Rydjord said, "The standard Chevy big-block pump has about 10 percent more volume than the small-block pump."
Lastly, I for their opinions on how far the pump pickup should be above the floor of the pan. Both stressed the proper space to be no less than 3/8 inch to keep enough flow, to no more than ½ inch to prevent uncovering while cornering.
Stock Conclusions
Stock oil pumps, in new or good condition, are adequate for many lower division race engines. Use a high-volume pump when an oil cooler or an oil accumulator are plumbed into the oil system. High-pressure pumps can overwork the oil and cost power. The Chevy big-block pump may be a good alternative. Keep the oil pickup screen 3/8-½ inch off the bottom of a stock pan.
Hope this was all worth reading, and hope it helps!
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My subi will peg the gauge on a cold start up (80 psi+). I have to let it run for about 10 minutes before it starts coming down.
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i have had some concerns about my oil psi since i built the motor. i have read many posts on the ford t 2.3 forums that seem to be consistent. on cold start up i see 50 psi at idle. once at operating temp i dip down to 18to20 psi at idle ( currently). those numbers are using an oil filled psi gauge. i have an electronic sensor for my dash gauge and just figured out yesterday that it reads 6 psi higher than the oil filled gauge. i tried a speedway branded non oil filled gauge and it showed the electric sensor was off 8 psi but the needle was shaky. i then swapped it out for the oil filled and it shows 6 psi difference. the reason i am looking as i have never had as high of a cold start oil psi as i thought it should have. there are a number of people that state 60-70 psi on cold start. my concern is the 18 - 20 psi hot and i don't see more than 45-50 psi at rpm hot. touch the throttle at idle and the pressure jumps instantly so the pump is working in that sense. now one thing i have to say is that when i switched to the severe duty amsoil 10w40 that i dropped about 2 -4 ish psi on hot idle. so here's the scary part lol on the last 2 trips, stopping at the top of a dune, i saw my electric gauge drop to 15 psi and now i know that was reading 6 psi high that means i actually dipped down to 9 psi hot idle! this only happened a few time and after a spirited run so it was def hot. i do not run an oil cooler but may add one.WHat are your oil temps? Should be in the range of water temperature +/- maybe 20 degrees.You WANT hot oil . Cool oil is not necessary or desired. Anything under 200-250 is good. An oil cooler with a thermostat or just properly sized is a good idea though. V-8 buggy runs 200 in the dry sump tank ,comes out of torque converter at around 260. Engine sees the 200 degree oil temp. Vettes LT1 sees about the same engine oil temps.
i am going to pull the engine and swap the pump this winter to be sure but the info i copy and pasted below, is the most in depth write up i have found pertaining to the ford 2.3 pumps. i am running the M86e as it was listed as stock turbo 2.3. i had read several posts early on stating to run the stock pump vs the n/a higher flowing pump as the turbo didn't like the additional oil. enemy brought up a good point and that turbo tech has come a long way. the guys stating that ( for the most part) are running 35 year old stock bushing turbo's and probably stock return lines. ford manual says 40-60 is the acceptable range above 2k rpm, no idle psi spec. im running sustained higher rpms than a stock engine.
either way, if the relief is indeed supposed to be 60 psi, i do not see 60 psi at rpm or cold idle, from day 1 so i wonder if the spring was wrong from the get go. yes i bought the melling pump new, not remanned. it didn't come with any gaskets and the ford book doenst show one. i didn't use any gasket sealer either. both surfaces appeared to be flat. didn't see any gaskets on the pump when i tore it down but that was a long time ago and there may have been and i didn't notice.
interesting info none the less.
From Neil Emiro:
OK, I've promised that I would post up some technical data on Ford 2.3L Oil Pumps that I gathered through email conversations with Melling engineers. It should be noted that there are many different pumps for the 2.3L. For this discussion, we'll look at the very common M86E, M127, and the M86CHV (High volume). The M127 is a completely different design than all the rest.
Let's get into the numbers. Here are the theoretical rotor displacements:
M127 0.0086 gal/rev
M86E 0.0086 gal/rev
M86CHV 0.0107 gal/rev
The M-86CHV has 25% more capacity. This equates to 21.4 gpm at 2000 rpm and 64.2 gpm at 6000 rpm. The actual pump output will be less due to volumetric efficiency and flow exhausted over the relief valve. All of the pumps (OEM and Melling) use a 60 psi relief valve setting.
OK, so why the change to the M127 pump later on? It costs more, is bigger/heavier, and flat out looks ugly. So why?
"The M-127 design was issued to reflect changes Ford made to the OE oil pump when the oil pan design was changed to aluminum. The volume is the same as the M-86E although the rotor set is a newer more efficient design. The M-127 pump should be fine so long as the fit and location of the pick-up tube present no problems."
Hmmm, I still don't know how much more efficient, but there might be some possibilities there. I am using one of these in my current 2.3L turbo engine (86 block) and SVO steel pan.
I had various questions related to pressures at different speeds, etc. At this point another engineer jumped in:
"Actually, I had a minute and I like a challenge, so I jumped right in...
The pressure at idle is established by the clearances within the engine, the theoretical displacement of the pump, the volumetric efficiency of the pump and the viscosity of the oil. Pressure at higher speeds is established by the pressure regulating valve.
About the only thing that we can be sure of in all of this, is the theoretical displacements of the Melling pumps and the pressure regulating valves that they use.
Relatively small changes in viscosity (via temperature or grade of oil...) can cause relatively large changes in pressure at idle.
The temperature of the engine proper (block, head, etc...), as well as the materials (iron v aluminum...) that are used, have a great deal of impact upon pressure at idle.
So much for idle...
Assuming that the diameters of the pistons that are used in the pressure regulating valves are the same size, then the pressure at higher speeds is established by the rate and the free length of the spring. If you want higher pressure, either use a spring that has a higher rate, use a spring that has the same rate but has a greater free length or shim the existing spring.
By the way, the pumps operate at half engine speed, so the displacement per engine revolution is half of the theoretical displacement of the pump..."
OK, sounds good. What is I wanted, say 15psi or so more than I am getting. I know I can shim the pressure relief valve, but by how much? This is common practice, but it always seems like a crap shoot as to how much to shim it for how much pressure you get. Is there a general rule of thumb for this (realizing that relief valve piston designs are different on different pumps)?
"To gain 15 psi all that should be required is a 1/8 thick. The M-86E would require a shim/washer 0.141" thick."
An article that they referred me to about flow vs. pressure. It's Chevy material, but it's all relevant to our discussion. Here's the direct link: http://stockcarracing.com/techarticles/134_0309_pump/index.html
Oil Pumps for Street Stock Race Engines
Flow Does Matter
By Sleepy Gomez
On a stock-type oiling system in a Street Stock level race engine, the softball-sized iron nugget buried at the bottom of the engine is the part that keeps it alive. The right oil pump can make your engine live longer. It can also free up horsepower that can be used at the rear wheels.
There are several oil pump performance variations available for stock power level engines. The first is the stock pump. It began its job when the engine was fired up at the automaker's plant. It is really a reasonable oil pump, in most cases, for stock engine classes. It may have fed lubricant to the engine for 100,000 miles (or more). Like other parts in an engine, it can wear out, and it's inexpensive insurance to replace a stock pump.
The next variation is a high-volume pump. This is sometimes referred to as a "high-pressure" pump. Actually, these two descriptions are not equivalent. The high-volume pump is designed to pump a higher volume of oil at the same pressure. In doing so, it may raise the oil pressure because a higher volume pumped into the same oil gallery space will cause a pressure increase. The intent of this design is to increase the oil flow. Increased flow is necessary in an engine where the working clearances of the bearings are larger. A point to remember is that the engine's bearings are oil-cooled.
All stock-type pumps have a pressure relief valve. This is necessary because cold, thick oil at start-up, or another restriction such as a plugged oil filter, can cause a serious problem. Once upon a time, long ago, I only had to blow two oil filters off of an engine before I found out that the relief valve was stuck. The relief valve prevents damage to the pump drive system by releasing any excess oil pressure back into the oil pan, instead of trying to force it through the engine's oil distribution channels. Because this drive system includes the camshaft and ignition drive on most stock engines, an overload on the oil pump can cause complete engine failure. A stripped cam gear from a seized oil pump is not a pretty sight. With a high-pressure pump, the relief valve will release pressure at a higher point than a stock unit, but it will still only have the volume of the stock pump.
Stock Oil Flow
I spent some time with two engineers from Melling Engine Parts, Mike Osterhaus and Cal Rydjord (sounds like Richard), discussing oil pumps for stock power level engines to get their tech advice. Melling is the largest manufacturer of new and replacement performance oil pumps in the United States.
Beginning with the stock pump, Rydjord felt it was adequate for most engines in stock-type racing classes. He pointed out that most Street Stock and entry-level race car engines have a stock, or possibly rebuilt, bottom end. Usually, the bearing clearances are stock. Therefore, even to 7,000 rpm, a stock pump has sufficient volume and pressure to supply oil to the engine.
Rydjord also offered his exception to an old adage. "The rule of 10 psi oil pressure for every 1,000 rpm is not really necessary. At one time, given tooling and manufacturing of the day, this may have been necessary. Today, while safe, it is overkill. Winston Cup engines live with only 50 pounds of oil pressure at 9,000 rpm."
To illustrate the extreme of reducing oil pressure, Rydjord related a story of a Pro Stock drag racer (upward of 1,200 hp) who, when needing a few more hundredths for a tight race, adjusted the dry sump oil pump to run with less than 40 pounds of pressure for the last half of the quarter. The less work the pump had to do, the more power went to the rear wheels. Subsequent teardowns revealed no damage to the bearings. This is not meant to imply one should arbitrarily reduce oil pressure, but to show that oil pressure by itself is not the end of the story.
High Pressure Pumps
Our discussion then moved to high-pressure pumps. These are really stock-volume pumps with a stronger spring backing up the pressure relief valve. This means that an oil pump must raise its pressure to a higher level before the relief valve opens and dumps oil back into the pan. If this extra pressure is not needed, then the engine is using horsepower to pump oil to a peak pressure that is unnecessary--thus resulting in less power to the wheels. An additional loss is that windmilling the unneeded oil back into the pan aerates the oil and raises its temperature. A higher oil temperature can also affect the engine by raising the water temperature.
Rydjord pointed out that the use of a high-pressure pump would not affect the idle oil pressure. It would only show up at an rpm where the pump capacity overcomes the pressure relief valve. He said that although each engine might be different, the relief valve would probably start to open around the oil volume that could be used at 3,500 engine rpm. So, consider that too much oil pressure wastes horsepower.
I asked Osterhaus about using high-volume pumps in stock level racing engines. He responded, "The stock pump can take care of the bearings on most stock or near-stock engines. There are two good instances where a high-volume pump should be used. In a case where the bearing clearances have been opened up, allowing more oil to flow through, the higher-volume [pump] would be a benefit. This situation is not as prevalent now as in the past. Most engine builders seem to tighten up the bearing clearances now. The other situation is when an oil cooler, or some other restriction, is added to the oil system. Then, additional flow is needed."
In my experience, I use a high-volume oil pump whenever I use an oil accumulator. The high-volume pump can refill the accumulator faster while still having enough capacity to supply oil to the engine. In case you haven't heard me say it before, I think an oil accumulator should always be used on a circle track race engine with a stock pan.
Use a Big-Block Pump?
Osterhaus and I had spoken before about the use of a big-block Chevy oil pump on a small-block engine. My long-held opinion was that the big-block pump was costly overkill. I had thought it pumped too much oil, therefore heating up the oil, and was thus unnecessary on a stock-type engine.
Osterhaus pointed out that the smallblock Chevy pump had 7 teeth on each of its gears, whereas the big-block unit had 12 teeth per gear. It was his opinion that the greater number of teeth of the big-block pump would smooth out the flow impulses of the pump. He noted these larger impulses from fewer teeth (of the stock, small-block pump) could affect the Chevy distributor because they are on the same drive. The impulses from the pump could randomly affect timing (creating spark scatter) to any given cylinder by a small degree.
But Rydjord noted, "I've never heard any specific complaints about these impulses affecting the ignition. But, yes, there would be a difference in the severity of the impulses between 7 and 12 impulses per camshaft revolution (half crank speed). I really don't know how much difference it might make."
When asked about the capacity of the Chevy big-block pump, Rydjord said, "The standard Chevy big-block pump has about 10 percent more volume than the small-block pump."
Lastly, I for their opinions on how far the pump pickup should be above the floor of the pan. Both stressed the proper space to be no less than 3/8 inch to keep enough flow, to no more than ½ inch to prevent uncovering while cornering.
Stock Conclusions
Stock oil pumps, in new or good condition, are adequate for many lower division race engines. Use a high-volume pump when an oil cooler or an oil accumulator are plumbed into the oil system. High-pressure pumps can overwork the oil and cost power. The Chevy big-block pump may be a good alternative. Keep the oil pickup screen 3/8-½ inch off the bottom of a stock pan.
Hope this was all worth reading, and hope it helps!
Good article/info.
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My subi will peg the gauge on a cold start up (80 psi+). I have to let it run for about 10 minutes before it starts coming down.
Run a thinner cold oil. 80psi at cold idle is not really good. The heavier oil that is causing 80@ idle cold is not allowing it to flow well to the bearings when it needs to the most. If using say 15w50 try using 5w40 or even 0w40 if still too high at idle start up. Your engine will like you for that. IMO,most of us worry too much about hot idle pressure. If the old 10psi per 1000rpm was even remotely needed then 10 psi hot idle is just fine even though most of us start freaking out when we see it.
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My subi will peg the gauge on a cold start up (80 psi+). I have to let it run for about 10 minutes before it starts coming down.
Run a thinner cold oil. 80psi at cold idle is not really good. The heavier oil that is causing 80@ idle cold is not allowing it to flow well to the bearings when it needs to the most. If using say 15w50 try using 5w40 or even 0w40 if still too high at idle start up. Your engine will like you for that. IMO,most of us worry too much about hot idle pressure. If the old 10psi per 1000rpm was even remotely needed then 10 psi hot idle is just fine even though most of us start freaking out when we see it.
I run 5W-30 now, might try 0W40 next time. I always let it warm up before hammering on it. My VW always did that also, just let it warm the same way. I remember a guy blew his oil filter off once in camp on a VW by revving it too hard when cold, and he wasn't using a good HP filter. thanks
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My subi will peg the gauge on a cold start up (80 psi+). I have to let it run for about 10 minutes before it starts coming down.
i believe enemy's turbo 2.3 hits close to 70 psi on cold start up. i am not sure which of the 3 pumps he runs but i know its not the one on i do. what does your gauge read at hot idle?
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My subi will peg the gauge on a cold start up (80 psi+). I have to let it run for about 10 minutes before it starts coming down.
Run a thinner cold oil. 80psi at cold idle is not really good. The heavier oil that is causing 80@ idle cold is not allowing it to flow well to the bearings when it needs to the most. If using say 15w50 try using 5w40 or even 0w40 if still too high at idle start up. Your engine will like you for that. IMO,most of us worry too much about hot idle pressure. If the old 10psi per 1000rpm was even remotely needed then 10 psi hot idle is just fine even though most of us start freaking out when we see it.
:m yes one can get might concerned when seeing 10 psi at idle. i have not dropped to 10 psi at idle yet and hope i don't but am exploring some other options. for now i'll try the 15w40 and see what that does. i know of a few other guys with ford turbo 2.3's that run it and those motors are in rails as well. none the less it's easy enough to swap oil and try especially for the next trip as it's an under taking to pull this motor. someone made it a mighty tight fit ;D
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My subi will peg the gauge on a cold start up (80 psi+). I have to let it run for about 10 minutes before it starts coming down.
Run a thinner cold oil. 80psi at cold idle is not really good. The heavier oil that is causing 80@ idle cold is not allowing it to flow well to the bearings when it needs to the most. If using say 15w50 try using 5w40 or even 0w40 if still too high at idle start up. Your engine will like you for that. IMO,most of us worry too much about hot idle pressure. If the old 10psi per 1000rpm was even remotely needed then 10 psi hot idle is just fine even though most of us start freaking out when we see it.
I run 5W-30 now, might try 0W40 next time. I always let it warm up before hammering on it. My VW always did that also, just let it warm the same way. I remember a guy blew his oil filter off once in camp on a VW by revving it too hard when cold, and he wasn't using a good HP filter. thanks
that would suck lol
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i do not have an oil temp gauge. i can tell you that my oil pressure doesnt really start to dip off of cold idle until i see atleast 159* ish on my coolant temp. its at operating temp and after a good run that it dips to 18 to 20 psi at idle. now the part that got my attention quickly was 2 trips ago, i stopped on peak of a dune with my nose over and the gauge starting flashing 15 psi. i have a safety set on my gauge to flash under 20 psi. now knowing the electric gauge reads 6 psi high then tech i did drop to 9 psi once. i have a feeling enemy might use the higher flow pump in his engine as i believe he went with the stock later model n/a 2.3 pump which is the higher flowing pump once ford went to the aluminum pan. that is a well written post i added above and very nice of that guy to take the time to post it!
i will watch it closer but honestly i know i have decent oil pressure and should be fine for the next trip. i do not have an oil cooler installed but have one to install . i ran it on the busa engine and believe it's a 32 plate. the turbo 2.3 came factory with a oil cooler. it was screwed on between the oil filter and block. coolant ran through it and i have read a few posts , back then, that at best they only saw oil temp reductions up to 25* at max. when you think about it.....25* is quite a bit on a stock set up. i did not run it because they are known to fail and dump coolant in the oil pan, bad day lol. pretty consistently many post on the ford forums that they see 20 ish psi hot idle. when i say hot idle i only mean at operating temp or after a hard pull. hell if i shut mine off and it sits 30 mins, my oil pressure comes back up on start up or rev it over 1500 from the 1k rpm idle and it jumps instantly. this is why i have wondered if the oil cooler might not be a bad idea but i should probably install an oil temp gauge first. if i go with the high flow pump then i will get an oil cooler thermostat and install both.
did not know 50 psi would sustain 9k rpm but on that same note they tear there motors down far far more frequent then i do lol
"The rule of 10 psi oil pressure for every 1,000 rpm is not really necessary. At one time, given tooling and manufacturing of the day, this may have been necessary. Today, while safe, it is overkill. Winston Cup engines live with only 50 pounds of oil pressure at 9,000 rpm."
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i will add that i have not seen any bubbles when i pull the dip stick, the amsoil is so clear after two trips that i have a hell of a time telling where the level is on the dipstick and it has never smelt burnt. that doesn't take the place of an oil temp gauge and it would be hard to add one.
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Nascar mandates that the engines run a minimum of 2 complete races or 1000 laps before they can be torn down, There are seal tags on them to prevent teams opening one up before then. No tag,no race. Consider 1000 laps at 9000 rpm. That's more abuse than probably a few years in the dunes.
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i will add that i have not seen any bubbles when i pull the dip stick, the amsoil is so clear after two trips that i have a hell of a time telling where the level is on the dipstick and it has never smelt burnt. that doesn't take the place of an oil temp gauge and it would be hard to add one.
It's unlikely your oil temps are but a small amount different from water temps.Most all synthetic oils now are fine even up to and over 300 degrees.I doubt your oil temps even without a cooler are over 220 even after a hard run. If I were you I'd run the stock liquid/liquid oil heat exchanger .
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i will add that i have not seen any bubbles when i pull the dip stick, the amsoil is so clear after two trips that i have a hell of a time telling where the level is on the dipstick and it has never smelt burnt. that doesn't take the place of an oil temp gauge and it would be hard to add one.
This tells me that I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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i will add that i have not seen any bubbles when i pull the dip stick, the amsoil is so clear after two trips that i have a hell of a time telling where the level is on the dipstick and it has never smelt burnt. that doesn't take the place of an oil temp gauge and it would be hard to add one.
This tells me that I wouldn't worry too much about it.
def a good sign
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i will add that i have not seen any bubbles when i pull the dip stick, the amsoil is so clear after two trips that i have a hell of a time telling where the level is on the dipstick and it has never smelt burnt. that doesn't take the place of an oil temp gauge and it would be hard to add one.
It's unlikely your oil temps are but a small amount different from water temps.Most all synthetic oils now are fine even up to and over 300 degrees.I doubt your oil temps even without a cooler are over 220 even after a hard run. If I were you I'd run the stock liquid/liquid oil heat exchanger .
long gone and not available to order. i could get an inline cooler which is smaller than the 32 plate but still offers some cooling. i think the higher flow pump for the sustained rpms or sustained higher rpms over stock , would fit the bill. since mine is supposed to have a 60 psi spring and doesn't make 60 psi on cold start up..... i wonder if mine came with a weak spring new?
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Nascar mandates that the engines run a minimum of 2 complete races or 1000 laps before they can be torn down, There are seal tags on them to prevent teams opening one up before then. No tag,no race. Consider 1000 laps at 9000 rpm. That's more abuse than probably a few years in the dunes.
i agree!!
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Where are you tapping into the oil gallery? Close to pump before entering the oil galleries or after everything is oiled and returning to pan? If you add an aftermarket liquid to air cooler remember that they are not nearly as efficient as the liquid to liquid was. It will take a considerably larger liquid to air to equal the liquid to liquid. Somewhere around 1 1/2 larger. There are liquid to liquid coolers aftermarket and they work quite well. But all that is a moot point since you don't know your oil temp. If your oil is not running over 200 or close to it then you have zero need for a cooler and truthfully, you don't want one either if so. Oil needs to be in that area to effectively boil off any moisture and also effectively do its' job. Too cool oil is not better-ever. What's too cool? Of course that is open to MANY opinions but most oil companies would like to see around 190 or so.
If you are not seeing your oil pressure at cold start up being very close to your bypass spring rating there is something not right. Maybe your gauge/s are just wrong. maybe you have a bypass piston sticking wide open and that is your hot idle lower than you want pressure. Maybe you have excess leakage internally from too large bearing clearances (rods/mains/cam)for the oil you are using. Maybe you have excess clearance in lifter bores. Maybe,maybe,maybe.
IMO,you need a temp gauge before you continue possibly over thinking this.
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i have considered bearing clearances as well as other possibilities. they are possible but i still suspect the pump as this has been basically like this since fresh rebuild. i will add an oil temp gauge before the trip also. there are several places to tap the oil gallery but i don't know where to return it.
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Soooo,you don't know what the bearing clearances were ? You say this "issue" has been there since a rebuild? Will you inspect/plastigage the mains/rods while you have pan off changing the pump? If not,why not? FWIW,I seriously doubt the pump is at fault IF the bearing clearances are within spec.
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Something to give thought to.
https://blog.k1technologies.com/bearing-clearance-and-oil-viscosity-explained
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i do not know what the clearences were . i have them written down at home but here at work with me. i was well with in spec ( ford spec) and in the tolerence range the machinist suggested. of course he specs the bearings before i did and he already knew i was well with in. like i said its been there since day one. now the amsoil 10w40 did seem to make it a little lower but not by a huge amount.
one thought i've kicked around for a while is oil psi sensor location.
factory location is left rear corner of the head. there is a T fitting threaded in and the first leg feeds the turbo and 2nd the oil psi gauge. now having said that........ fords sensor went to an idiot gauge. that gauge read tow to high and didnt read low until under 10 psi if at all.
the reason i kind of questioned this location is because that turbo feed line is only 20". every knows how it flows through a turbo and then returns to the oil pan. so i do under stand my dual bb turbo has a restrictor but i still wonder if that location might show a lower psi than in a diff port directly in the head or block?
if that sensor location accounted for a 5 to 10 psi drop then it would set me where i want to be. i plumped the mech gauge into the same spot for comparison
i of course could re check my bearing clearences while i have the pan off. not hard to do at that point.
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Something to give thought to.
https://blog.k1technologies.com/bearing-clearance-and-oil-viscosity-explained
very good info there! i will go find my notes but as i remember i was just a little tighter then middle of ford spec on mains and rods.
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Was cam bearing clearance checked? On many engines that is a source of major leakage. Most shops just drive the bearings in and if the cam turns call it good.
I'd try plumbing in a mechanical gauge at all possible places.See what you have. Easier than putting a different pump in .
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so i cannot find my notes. there with the ford manual and i moved some where and cannot find it last night. either way it was well with in spec. thats a good question on the cam. the cam/head combo i bought used from enemy and bolted right on. the last head cam combo was stock and i had rebuilt. like i said i've had this oil issue since i built it.
i was reading some diff posts on the ford forums and saw a couple video links. so there a debate on whether or not the 2.3 pumps need gaskets. chilton and haynes says they do but the ford manual doesnt say and melling doesnt sell a gasket. i know i didnt use one or gasket sealer when i installed mine. enemy did. now i am pretty sur enemy's oil pump is the higher volume also.
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been fighting a cold since mon evening and had my grandson for a few days before. yep i'm pretty sure i know where the cold came from ;D so i havent had any time to get back on the engine.
interesting side note.....was reading some info and watched an eric the car guy video linked to one the articles. he says if the needle shakes or vibrates then that means theres an oil leak in the system. this is a new one on me.....anyone know that to be true? i ask because at idle (oil filled gauge) my gauge does wiggle/vibrate. it does not hold steady but does through a 6k rpm sweep which only spikes 50 psi pressure with amsoil 10w/40.
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I would think it would indicate a leak on the suction side allowing air into system.
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I would think it would indicate a leak on the suction side allowing air into system.
that would make sense. the pick up tube could have a leak i didn't see.