DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Controls and Electrical => Topic started by: Jerry on May 07, 2009, 09:24:16 PM
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Any thoughts on them, and how did you mount yours. I am having a tough time coming up with a mounting idea that makes it difficult to prevent someone from just removing the nuts on the switch and connecting the two wires together, thus bypassing the switch. Any thoughts or pic's . Would be helpful..
Thanks Jerry
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I use a master shut off that is behind the passenger seat. I am not worried about security, just safety -in the event somebody needs to be able to disconnect the battery from outside the car. It mounts through a panel directly above the battery area.
The only picture I have is this one.
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Jerry, theres always away around everything, your best bet is to put a hiddle switch in the wire loom somewhere.
also, put the battery cut off switch in line with the negitive lead.
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The idea of have the switch is to prevet battery drain (and some security) so if it goes on the neg cable how does that help? I like the idea of the hidy switch.. I am also going to pull the fuse for the starter when it sits.
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The idea of have the switch is to prevet battery drain (and some security) so if it goes on the neg cable how does that help? I like the idea of the hidy switch.. I am also going to pull the fuse for the starter when it sits.
You have to have negative to run, drain power etc... Not sure why he suggests negative cable, But makes sense, Im sure he will explain further...
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I not think the neg cable idea will work for me, because i have a few spots around the vehicle that i have made grounding points so that i do not have to run wires all the way back to one location for a ground. That way if i have an issue i only need to trace the hot wire back to the fuse panel.
I have to use the pos cable or some of my switches ( lights,fuel pump,cig lighters ) will always be hot thus a possible drain.
I am right ??? ??? ???
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Onya Jet, good one mate ;)
Jet's talking about the lead that comes from the battery not the different grounding points and it REQUIRED in some classes of racing.
Don't rely on "cutting power" as a security measure if security is a concern. use a cheap immobiliser if you are really concerned about security.
Battery cutoff is a SAFETY device NOT a security device ;)
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Yes, Run the switch inline with the lead from the battery to the frame, that way its not live if your working around it etc, As mr trojan said, in some racing putting it on the negitive side is required.
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and... the reason behind negative terminal isolation is a safety issue.
Liken it to disconnecting a terminal on the battery. Would you remove the positive or the negative when doing so? Most will disconnect the positive....wrong.
With the positive terminal off, the entire chassis is still 'live' (for want of a better word), it is still connected to the battery and therefore still part of the circuit (although no current is flowing).
Any metallic object can still short out to ANY part of the chassis if it touches the pos terminal, perhaps a dropped spanner OR a bent/displaced piece of piece of tubing in a crashed buggy. This is why racing requires a negative isolater in Aus.
Disconnect the Negative terminal and the circuit is open (the same as before) BUT the chassis is dead and no longer part of the circuit, accidental short circuits are nearly impossible.
And, this IS NOT my opinion, its part of the laws surrounding motor racing in Aus... Happy Bar Mitzvah!
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I guess I'm stoopid. If the negative lead is disconnected you still have potential current flow if any hot lead makes ground from a dropped wrench or anything that will complete the circuit. If the positive lead is cut close to the battery it prevents any possibility of current flow from the disconnection point on. WTH would it be better to cut the negative or do you ozzies use positive ground systems? I agree to stop a spark in the event of cutoff cutting the negative is ALWQAYS the proper procedure but to prevent current flow the positive is what needs cut.Same as in a 110V circuit you ALWAYS switch the load(+) leg. Makes no sense to cut the ground circuit since the circuit will stilll be live.Inoperable BUT LIVE.
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Call me stupid too, my thinking is following Masterfabrs. Please help me understand this :o ;D
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Cutting either works - once it is isolated, it is no longer a complete circuit. The negative might be a fine call.
I did positive but i thought - well, here is one more lead to fall off and arc around........ so i loc titied it up and went about my business.
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BS if the positive is still energized there is the potential for current flow.Take for instance, you have an accident and a sheetmetal panel touches the neg terminal of the battery. If the negatyive cable is the cutoff it is of no use since the body panel is now the ground circuit-current flows,sparks and ignites leaking flammables. Not possible if the positive cable is the disconnect.Glad I'm not in Ozland.You guys do everything bassackwards! LOL!!!
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what you just described is completing the circuit - that can happen on either side - cutting the circuit is the goal. (Dang, and I usedd my "smite" for this hour - rats!)
To the extent that doing so on the negative side allows for only one main positive lead with no breaks to the starter, it might be better than having an effective junction on the positive side.
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How you figure? Current flows FROM the positive TO the negative. If the positive is switched close to the battery there is NO WAY for a problem.Put the switch within 6" of the battery and run a cable to the switch.Simple and nearly impossible to have any short circuits anywhere.Electrical code in the US REQUIRES the switch on any circuit to be on the LOAD(+) side of a circuit for the very reasons I just gave. I understand that code applies to AC but the principles are the same.
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NHRA REQUIRES it to be in the correct place. The POSITIVE cable .YOu Ozzies are just plain backwards .Really I want to SEE where any sanctioning body wants it on the negative side.Makes no sense to me.
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I am just not seeing the benefit of putting the cutoff on the neg cable. The pos side you have NO chance of shorts.
I just went and looked at the manaul My manaul for the motor says connect the pos first then neg when disconnecting neg cable first then pos. The motor is and efi so am guessing that has something to do with the computer.
I am now leaning toward one on neg and one on the pos, so i donot have and issue with the computer.
I JUST DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO... ??? ??? ???
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Proper procedure IS to disconnect the negative cable FIRST to prevent spark. That applies to a terminal connection at the battery. Batteries off gas and potentially COULD blow up .Not likely tho. For the electronics always disconnect the negative FIRST. For ultimate safety in the event of an accident though the switch should be on the positive side. AS said earlier that prevents ANY current flow in the system anywhere. Any decent quality 12V cutoff switch is well enough enclosed to not be an explosion hazard 99% of the time. TRhere ARE some cheapo POS cutoff switches that are exposed and IMO should NOT be used .
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Oh and it's highly unlikely there is any harm to the electronics by shutting off the power on the positive side when the car is shutdown.Possible but unlikely. Different story if circuit is interrupted while car is running.
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Proper procedure IS to disconnect the negative cable FIRST to prevent spark. That applies to a terminal connection at the battery. Batteries off gas and potentially COULD blow up .Not likely tho. For the electronics always disconnect the negative FIRST. For ultimate safety in the event of an accident though the switch should be on the positive side. AS said earlier that prevents ANY current flow in the system anywhere. Any decent quality 12V cutoff switch is well enough enclosed to not be an explosion hazard 99% of the time. TRhere ARE some cheapo POS cutoff switches that are exposed and IMO should NOT be used .
The logic is starting to get a little bit twisted up there Fabr.
I believe for the same reason that they want the negative disconnected first and reconnected last is the very reason that "down under" they put the switch on the negative side. Lets face it, both ways work. And once disconnected with either method, you still have a 6" wire and a terminal that are hazardous if you drop a wrench on a bare spot.
With today's FI engines, I would be inclined to go on the negative side.
Going on the negative side allso eliminates the big NHRA problem of an alternator backfeeding the circuit and allowing a runnaway engine to continue to run. With the cuttoff on the positive side, you must run the alternator wire directly back to the battery, or through a secondary switch, or it will continue to feed the circuit even after the switch is turned off, and allow the motor to continue running.
It is a good idea to test the switch to see if it kills the motor.
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The cheapo switch you are talking, meaning the switch mechizm is expose. Thus allowinga spark correct
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The contacts are exposed allowing an open spark that could ignite fuel, etc.
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um...... I understand it's BOTH. not just negative. sorry if I implied it was just neg...
Why negative? Neg is sometimes erroneously referred to as ground, implying it is at the same electrical potential as the dirt-ground or Zero Volts. that is a very common misconception. With a 12v car battery, there can be as much as 20V of difference between the dirt and the negative rail... yes it can also be at 0V but there's no way to be sure without connecting the neg to dirt.
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Ahhhh,now that makes sense.
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As far as I know they must use a 4 pole switch. Artie?
http://www.gmpracingproducts.com.au/car-setup-equipment/switch-panel-switch-4-pole-battery-switch.php (http://www.gmpracingproducts.com.au/car-setup-equipment/switch-panel-switch-4-pole-battery-switch.php)
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As far as I know they must use a 4 pole switch. Artie?
http://www.gmpracingproducts.com.au/car-setup-equipment/switch-panel-switch-4-pole-battery-switch.php (http://www.gmpracingproducts.com.au/car-setup-equipment/switch-panel-switch-4-pole-battery-switch.php)
Troj, the actual type os switch isnt stipulated BUT common sense would dictate a 4 pole for obvious reasons.
Ive never heard so much tripe in my life Fabr...stop and think about it for a moment...
On a negative earth chassis...the entire frame is part of the circuit.... Simply disconnecting the battery at the postive terminal leaves it open to accidental short circuits. Any body work or barwork near the positive terminal can potentialy SHORT out. By disconnecting the negative and removing current from teh chassis th eonly short that can now occur is directly across the terminals. Limiting the possibility (not ELIMINATING it though).
No one mentioned electronics or current flow, that all came from your misunderstanding of the issue. Your thinking is also a little flawed in this area, when using jumper leads always disconnect the earth lead first because you DIDNT put it on the battery, its on a good earth on th eengine somewhere, so when it sparks it wont cause the gas produced by the battery (Hydrogen) to ignite... Disconnecting th eneg at the battery to stop sparks simply will not work.... so what if teh spark jumps FROM or TO the terminal (the difference between pos or neg disconnect), it will still ignite the gas!
This regulation is about limiting possible damage or fire in teh case of an accident.
Now im off to golf you guys are carzy.. ;D
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;D
Keep your shirt on
8)
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Troj, the actual type os switch isnt stipulated BUT common sense would dictate a 4 pole for obvious reasons.
Ive never heard so much tripe in my life Fabr...stop and think about it for a moment...
On a negative earth chassis...the entire frame is part of the circuit.... Simply disconnecting the battery at the postive terminal leaves it open to accidental short circuits. Any body work or barwork near the positive terminal can potentialy SHORT out. By disconnecting the negative and removing current from teh chassis th eonly short that can now occur is directly across the terminals. Limiting the possibility (not ELIMINATING it though).
No one mentioned electronics or current flow, that all came from your misunderstanding of the issue. Your thinking is also a little flawed in this area, when using jumper leads always disconnect the earth lead first because you DIDNT put it on the battery, its on a good earth on th eengine somewhere, so when it sparks it wont cause the gas produced by the battery (Hydrogen) to ignite... Disconnecting th eneg at the battery to stop sparks simply will not work.... so what if teh spark jumps FROM or TO the terminal (the difference between pos or neg disconnect), it will still ignite the gas!
This regulation is about limiting possible damage or fire in teh case of an accident.
Now im off to golf you guys are carzy.. ;D
Speaking of tripe.Reread your post.
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The reason you put jumper cable negative on the engine is to prevent the majority of the jump current from going into the battery and absorbing much of it before it reaches the starter.That enables the starter to receive full amps from the jumper vehicle. The reason a battery is connected positive first and negative is always removed first is to prevent a spark but if under enough load-such as a direct short-it can still spark. The reality is that if you guys will stop and THINK for bit it really doesn't matter which is disconnected so long as the alternator is wired properly-charging the battery only and not energizing the electrical system directly. Otherwise it makes no difference at all. I PREFER to isolate the positive . Also the talk about ground and earth is irrelevant in a car.Ground is ground since the battery is it's own "earth". Sheesh.
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Troj, the actual type os switch isnt stipulated BUT common sense would dictate a 4 pole for obvious reasons.
Ive never heard so much tripe in my life Fabr...stop and think about it for a moment...
On a negative earth chassis...the entire frame is part of the circuit.... Simply disconnecting the battery at the postive terminal leaves it open to accidental short circuits. Any body work or barwork near the positive terminal can potentialy SHORT out. By disconnecting the negative and removing current from teh chassis th eonly short that can now occur is directly across the terminals. Limiting the possibility (not ELIMINATING it though).
No one mentioned electronics or current flow, that all came from your misunderstanding of the issue. Your thinking is also a little flawed in this area, when using jumper leads always disconnect the earth lead first because you DIDNT put it on the battery, its on a good earth on th eengine somewhere, so when it sparks it wont cause the gas produced by the battery (Hydrogen) to ignite... Disconnecting th eneg at the battery to stop sparks simply will not work.... so what if teh spark jumps FROM or TO the terminal (the difference between pos or neg disconnect), it will still ignite the gas!
This regulation is about limiting possible damage or fire in teh case of an accident.
Now im off to golf you guys are carzy.. ;D
Ummmm,yes they did.Read the whole thread next time artie. Reply # 16.
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;D
Keep your shirt on
8)
Dont look but I never took it off... it wouldnt be a pretty site in any case (think Sasqquatch et al...yuk) :o
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;D
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Proper procedure IS to disconnect the negative cable FIRST to prevent spark.
Ok, how does this prevent spark? Any load on the circuit (current flow) will create a spark, you'll have to explain this one to me cause Im not getting it... and please make the explanation slow and use little words... its sunday afternoon here... :-\
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The reason you put jumper cable negative on the engine is to prevent the majority of the jump current from going into the battery and absorbing much of it before it reaches the starter.
Again please explain , standard practise is to apply the leads and let the donor car run for a few minutes (this procedure allows for any current dumps that will likely occur upon connection) and then start the dead car. Then remove the remote from the battery earth lead first so that any sparks (there could well be with a large charge imbalance from the drained battery and the donor full battery) are nowhere near the madly gassing charging battery... Sorry mate but you are wrong... 8)
I should make the point that th edonor car should not be running at connection time. Todays alernators can have enourmous current potential..
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Also the talk about ground and earth is irrelevant in a car.Ground is ground since the battery is it's own "earth". Sheesh.
Agreed, perhaps we should use the ground terminal?
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Anyway, our respective countries motor racing bodies have differing opinions and I promise I wont get upset about yours being wrong.... unless I have to come race over there... then we will have a problem ... ;D ;D
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;D
Keep your shirt on
8)
Uhm, just had a thought and it was this post that alerted me.. My original post may have come across as rude or aggressive. If it did I want to apologise for that. It certainly wasnt meant to sound that way. I was about to run out the door and in a huge hurry, perhaps I should have taken the time that I normally do when making contentious postings.
That isnt an excuse btw, just an explanation. Thanks Spec for alerting me.
Thereore, if anyone has taken any offence, I unreservedly apologise. HOWEVER, after all this time and after all these debates, you should know me better by now. Im not malicious, yeah I like a good arguement but not at the risk of losing friends, and you guys are all friends.
If anyone still has an issue, please pm me and I will make my apology a direct personal one.
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I was talking about the polo shirtless babes... :o
and the dress code :o ;D
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LOL!!!! Yeah I took it that way also. POLO shirt needs kept ON Artie!!!!! UNLESS you're taking a babe and THEN don't worry about the shirt. Hehehehheheheeee.
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Again please explain , standard practise is to apply the leads and let the donor car run for a few minutes (this procedure allows for any current dumps that will likely occur upon connection) and then start the dead car. Then remove the remote from the battery earth lead first so that any sparks (there could well be with a large charge imbalance from the drained battery and the donor full battery) are nowhere near the madly gassing charging battery... Sorry mate but you are wrong... 8)
I should make the point that th edonor car should not be running at connection time. Todays alernators can have enourmous current potential..
Your standard practice is a bit different. THe practice here that is taught in automotive training is to connect the jumper leads to the battery on the donor car and the positive to the battery and the negative to the engine block on the car being jumped.WHY you ask? Because electricity takes the path of least resistance. On the donor vehicle the current from the battery AND the alternator will be available to transmit to wherever. On the jumped car you connect the negative to the engine block OR the OEM PROVIDED ground lug that is directly connected to the engine block. This is done to allow the current to take the path of least resistance to the starter by bypassing the battery .The battery WILL absorb a good bit of the available current before it gets to the starter if the negative lead is connected directly to the battery. Connecting the lead to the block makes the current flow into the starter BEFORE it goes to the battery.SEE?
Now to CHARGE a battery in the car the best practice is to connect both leads directly to the battery.
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Again please explain , standard practise is to apply the leads and let the donor car run for a few minutes (this procedure allows for any current dumps that will likely occur upon connection) and then start the dead car. Then remove the remote from the battery earth lead first so that any sparks (there could well be with a large charge imbalance from the drained battery and the donor full battery) are nowhere near the madly gassing charging battery... Sorry mate but you are wrong... 8)
I should make the point that th edonor car should not be running at connection time. Todays alernators can have enourmous current potential..
Sorry mate but YOU are wrong.If you are jumping the battery it is DISCHARGED and not wildly gassing.That occurs when CHARGING a battery and I agree totally in that . It is standard and CORRECT practice to ALWAYS make the ground circuit last to be connected and the FIRST to be disconnected to minimize the potenti to spark on connection.Don't believe me? Do a little experimenting or research BEFORE you argue this further and you will find this is not just me blabbering on about something I know nothing about. Might save a bit of embarrassment for you. ;D ;D,
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BTW it is a common misconception that current flows from positive to negative in metals eg. a wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current#Conventional_current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_current#Conventional_current)
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With and efi motor you are saying it should be shutdown my interupting the ground (breaking the ground connection) and not interupting the power (the positive) to the fuse panel, because that could cause demage to the eletronic. Is that correct?????
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With and efi motor you are saying it should be shutdown my interupting the ground (breaking the ground connection) and not interupting the power (the positive) to the fuse panel, because that could cause demage to the eletronic. Is that correct?????
That's the possibility from what I understand.
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Sorry mate but YOU are wrong.If you are jumping the battery it is DISCHARGED and not wildly gassing.That occurs when CHARGING a battery and I agree totally in that . It is standard and CORRECT practice to ALWAYS make the ground circuit last to be connected and the FIRST to be disconnected to minimize the potenti to spark on connection.Don't believe me? Do a little experimenting or research BEFORE you argue this further and you will find this is not just me blabbering on about something I know nothing about. Might save a bit of embarrassment for you. ;D ;D,
I think you will find that once started the now madly CHARGING battery will be discharging gases as Ive (tried to) explained. I think Ill have t ogive up...OK FABR YOUR RIGHT ::)
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Having read this thread I can give Fabr a valuable tip - when anything electrical is mentioned stay quiet - you'll look much smarter that way. hehe
The best two few (had trouble limiting myself):
direction of flow - I guess we could just say that in oz it flows from neg to pos. That may save some face.
And the crash scenario - classic! Lets disconnect the positive so that if there is a crash and the bodywork comes in on the disconnected terminal (in this case the positive) we get a complete short cct - ever seen that sort of damage??? The cabling itself can burst into flame - a really intense fire/heat problem!!! At least with negaitve disconnected, if the bodywork touches the negative the only current flowing is through whatever load was switched on in the vehicle - much less current and less chance of fire etc. Any sparking would also be much less intense.
And the connection of jumper leads to "ground" instead of the battery to get the current to go to the starter instead of the battery - hehe - if the distances are similar will the path of least resistence include a chunk of engine block or some nice beefly copper cable??? And when it comes down to it, how much difference is distance going to make anyhow? Have you ever seen where they usually put the connection lugs for this? All the ones I have ever seen are much closer to the battery than the starter. I hope to see you hooking up jumper leads some day - down near the starter - while you're down there ...
Sorry - I've gotta do another one: Fabr says: "I guess I'm stoopid. If the negative lead is disconnected you still have potential current flow if any hot lead makes ground from a dropped wrench or anything that will complete the circuit." Just thinking a second ... with the neg disconnected you'd have to be accurate - the dropped wrench/hot lead set up will have to hit the neg terminal on the battery exactly - because the bodywork/chassis is disconnected (remember - you disconnected the neg lead). And, in Oz, with the flow going from neg to pos, "hot lead" takes on a new meaning.
Sorry ... it was just too funny reading this thread.
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And I'll sit here in a quiet moment enjoying my last seconds of zero smites ...
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I think you will find that once started the now madly CHARGING battery will be discharging gases as Ive (tried to) explained. I think Ill have t ogive up...OK FABR YOUR RIGHT ::)
Just how sudden are you trying to say this sudden wildly gassing occurs? It takes a bit to occur ya know.
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Having read this thread I can give Fabr a valuable tip - when anything electrical is mentioned stay quiet - you'll look much smarter that way. hehe
The best two few (had trouble limiting myself):
direction of flow - I guess we could just say that in oz it flows from neg to pos. That may save some face.
And the crash scenario - classic! Lets disconnect the positive so that if there is a crash and the bodywork comes in on the disconnected terminal (in this case the positive) we get a complete short cct - ever seen that sort of damage??? The cabling itself can burst into flame - a really intense fire/heat problem!!! At least with negaitve disconnected, if the bodywork touches the negative the only current flowing is through whatever load was switched on in the vehicle - much less current and less chance of fire etc. Any sparking would also be much less intense.
And the connection of jumper leads to "ground" instead of the battery to get the current to go to the starter instead of the battery - hehe - if the distances are similar will the path of least resistence include a chunk of engine block or some nice beefly copper cable??? And when it comes down to it, how much difference is distance going to make anyhow? Have you ever seen where they usually put the connection lugs for this? All the ones I have ever seen are much closer to the battery than the starter. I hope to see you hooking up jumper leads some day - down near the starter - while you're down there ...
Sorry - I've gotta do another one: Fabr says: "I guess I'm stoopid. If the negative lead is disconnected you still have potential current flow if any hot lead makes ground from a dropped wrench or anything that will complete the circuit." Just thinking a second ... with the neg disconnected you'd have to be accurate - the dropped wrench/hot lead set up will have to hit the neg terminal on the battery exactly - because the bodywork/chassis is disconnected (remember - you disconnected the neg lead). And, in Oz, with the flow going from neg to pos, "hot lead" takes on a new meaning.
Sorry ... it was just too funny reading this thread.
You REALLY need to think about that and the circuitry differences and how the current flows. .The circuit is ----positive battery to starter ,current flows into starter then into block then into the negative terminal that is connected onto the engine and finally terminates at battery. If that battery is dead or severly discharged and in need of a jump then connecting the jumper leads to the dead battery directly will allow the current to enter the battery first and then be directed to the starter.But since the battery is being jumped ,since it's dead, by being directly connected the battery will take much of the charging current instead of it being passed primarily to the starter if the battery is last in line of the circuit. That is just how electrical draw works .See? If not I think you guys need to read a few shop manuals on proper jumping procedures.If CHARGING a battery the proper connection ,of course,is to DIRECT connect the charger to the battery for the same reasons as above.
Good Gawd I was wondering if anyine was EVER going to say something about that!!! ;D ;D About time guys! 8)
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Oz does use negative ground like in the US don't you? You know ,I guess you guys have convinced me that a negative main switch is a good way to go ;D 8) 8) ;D but as for jumping procedure I have to say you need to read up.
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Just how sudden are you trying to say this sudden wildly gassing occurs? It takes a bit to occur ya know.
It does take a bit, say a few minutes while you are letting the cars stabilise after starting the dead car... you do let this happen dont you? by that time some gas has started to appear. Would you risk the chance of explosion? Have you seen such an explosion? I have and its quite dramatic.
I think we can agree that it seems our countries have different recommended procedures. If that is the case then we can say that we are possibly both correct in our statements.
Mate, with regards to my embarressing myself, no problem, when Im wrong Im happy to admit such. No embarrassment at all. In this case there is not need to be embarrassed because Im not wrong. And also with regards to needing to do some reading.. I think youll find I dont... as I have already probably read more than most on this subject.
And in closing (at least from me anyway) without reading all the posts made, im not really sure how we got here.. I was trying to make the point that IMO (and my countries racing bodies regulations) ground switch control for emergency use was preferable.
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It does take a bit, say a few minutes while you are letting the cars stabilise after starting the dead car... you do let this happen dont you? by that time some gas has started to appear. Would you risk the chance of explosion? Have you seen such an explosion? I have and its quite dramatic.
I think we can agree that it seems our countries have different recommended procedures. If that is the case then we can say that we are possibly both correct in our statements.
Mate, with regards to my embarressing myself, no problem, when Im wrong Im happy to admit such. No embarrassment at all. In this case there is not need to be embarrassed because Im not wrong. And also with regards to needing to do some reading.. I think youll find I dont... as I have already probably read more than most on this subject.
And in closing (at least from me anyway) without reading all the posts made, im not really sure how we got here.. I was trying to make the point that IMO (and my countries racing bodies regulations) ground switch control for emergency use was preferable.
No I never have let it "stabilize" No reasoon to. Yes i have seen a battery explode all over the school principles jeep when I was at Auto Tech School Yes they Do explode dont they? I agree that a battery needs to have the negative disconnected first to prevent the possible spark. We have not disagreed on that in the least so why are we continuing to discuss that?
Seems to be the case but I still don't know if you guys are negative ground.
And I thank you because I think you guys have converted me to a negative ground switch being preferrable.
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No I never have let it "stabilize" No reasoon to. Yes i have seen a battery explode all over the school principles jeep when I was at Auto Tech School Yes they Do explode dont they? I agree that a battery needs to have the negative disconnected first to prevent the possible spark. We have not disagreed on that in the least so why are we continuing to discuss that?
Seems to be the case but I still don't know if you guys are negative ground.
And I thank you because I think you guys have converted me to a negative ground switch being preferrable.
Indeed we are negative ground.. I have a suggestion... how about we move on? I think we are agreeing on the important stuff and while I enjoy a good dust up, this isnt a good dust up and its not adding much to our lives....
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Did you not see THIS? "And I thank you because I think you guys have converted me to a negative ground switch being preferrable."Hell ,you guys swayed me on something.You should be celebrating! It's a rare ocassion!! bb: mm:
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ff:
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Did you not see THIS? "And I thank you because I think you guys have converted me to a negative ground switch being preferrable."Hell ,you guys swayed me on something.You should be celebrating! It's a rare ocassion!! bb: mm:
Yeah did see it. As an aussie I dont like to make a scene when a mate admits something like that, its a very personal thing..... ;)
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ff:
and YOU! get your sorry arse out from behind the couch ya big sheila!
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Talk like that might get you smitten
Ya bit of a dill ;D
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Dill head indeed mate!
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Yeah did see it. As an aussie I dont like to make a scene when a mate admits something like that, its a very personal thing..... ;)
Feel free I don't mind in the least.At least I don't mind when someone debates something with facts and/or logic. Very cool,take credit !
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And I'll sit here in a quiet moment enjoying my last seconds of zero smites ...
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi153.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs233%2Fbuggyland%2Fsmileys%2Frofl.gif&hash=1afe2ff8082f68c8aac507b9eb2114118997c992)
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Did you not see THIS? "And I thank you because I think you guys have converted me to a negative ground switch being preferrable."Hell ,you guys swayed me on something.You should be celebrating! It's a rare ocassion!! bb: mm:
Who are you? and what have you done with our Fab?
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I now want some ozzie to try to refute my take on jumping a car. Go ahead just try! LOL!!!! As for the switch being on the positive or negative I admit you convinced me only due to the possibility of backfeeding the electrical system a negative switch is best but as for charging/jumping procedure you'll have a real hard time convincing me that what I was taught is wrong. Positive is always connected first and negative is always removed last.
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Also,for the record I only agree with the negative ground switch due to the possibility of someone incorrectly wiring in the alternator that would ,as engineer pointed out,and allow the engine to continue running when the switch is turned off.IF the alternator is wired correctly then the switch can be in either the positive or negative lead and serve the exact same purpose equally well.
Soooo,what is the correct wiring for an alternator that has to pass US sanctioning rules? Remember that NHRA and others require the switch be in the positive lead. So what is correct alternator wiring? Simple. When running a switch on the POSITIVE lead you MUST connect the alternator lead directly to the battery or to the switch terminal that is on the battery side of the switch. WHY you ask? Because if you connect the lead to the "car side" of the switch then the alternator will continue to energize the electrical system even when switched off and allow everything to still function and the car to continue running even though the battery is removed from the circuit. IF the system is correctly wired it is impossible to backfeed the system.That's the ONLY reason I see for any concern about which lead it is in..I assume it's the "idiot factor" that made Oz go with the negative switch and I feel it's a very good idea. You convinced me.Congrats. BUT here in the US it will not pass inspection with a switch in the negative lead. Bottom line is that you must satisfy the rules under which you run.
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Ahh there you are, glad to have ya back mate ;)
:-*
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I thought you were missing me. :m :t bb: dd:
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I now want some ozzie to try to refute my take on jumping a car. Go ahead just try! LOL!!!! As for the switch being on the positive or negative I admit you convinced me only due to the possibility of backfeeding the electrical system a negative switch is best but as for charging/jumping procedure you'll have a real hard time convincing me that what I was taught is wrong. Positive is always connected first and negative is always removed last.
Maaaate... lets go!
Actually, there is no arguement with this at all.... same here.
Now, WHY the ground is placed on the engine is where we differ. And from my back reading thats the only place we differ.....
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apart from you being a cranky arguementative................. ;D 8) ;D
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Well damn! ;D The reason on the placement is----think about this----the difference between series and parallel. Think now.
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Well Fabr, I suppose the right answers for the wrong reasons are as good as we're gunna get - who cares - come and have a beer.
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This was just discussed in the context of parallel or series for lighting. Same principle applies and no argued the point there.Why is that? AND where's my beer?LOL!!!
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apart from you being a cranky arguementative................. ;D 8) ;D
I'm CRANKY ,you Ozzies are ARGUMENTATIVE! bb: dd: :nw
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Post # 63 answered my question well ;D ;DSOO with all that has been said, If your using a maintence charger you would want the cutoff on the pos cable so that the charge is going into the battery and no the whole electrically system. The debate over where to put the neg cable coming from the charger would be the same debate as where to put the neg cable if you where jump starting the car?THe reason i was told to put the neg on the frame (back in high school) on both cars was: you were less likely to connect the cables backwards. Hey it was highschool...
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But fabr we arent talking about a parrelel circuit. only a series circuit. In a series the single point of resistance controls the current flow through the entire circuit.
Meaning you can have the biggest cables in the world but if the switch can only flow 10amps, thats ALL that will flow... ever.
Changing to block ground wont INCREASE current flow UNLESS the ground clamp on teh battery is faulty, if its not then no gain can be experienced beacuse the other components wont allow EXTRA flow just because youve put the lead on the engine somewhere...
Your arguement would work if you were also putting the positive straight to the starter motor as well thereby taking the rest of teh circuit out of play.
BUT, im not arguing with you any longer on this, remember I said that before.... nope, dont try and get me to..Im not interested...
but your still wrong....
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But fabr we arent talking about a parrelel circuit. only a series circuit. In a series the single point of resistance controls the current flow through the entire circuit.
Meaning you can have the biggest cables in the world but if the switch can only flow 10amps, thats ALL that will flow... ever.
Changing to block ground wont INCREASE current flow UNLESS the ground clamp on teh battery is faulty, if its not then no gain can be experienced beacuse the other components wont allow EXTRA flow just because youve put the lead on the engine somewhere...
Your arguement would work if you were also putting the positive straight to the starter motor as well thereby taking the rest of teh circuit out of play.
BUT, im not arguing with you any longer on this, remember I said that before.... nope, dont try and get me to..Im not interested...
but your still wrong....
BINGO! That's my point.The positive DOES go directly to the starter just thru the solenoid.that's what I've been saying all along.And YES if you put BOTH the pos and neg jumper leads on the battery of the jumped vehicle you ARE in parallel. SEE? So the resistance IS the jumped battery. Best to avoid that if you want full current to the starter.By hooking the cables in series you avoid the amp dump into the dead battery.I think we've blurred the discussion between the best place for a cutoff switch(which you guys convinced me of) and the best practice for jump starting a vehicle.