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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: Boostinjdm on January 04, 2009, 02:23:49 AM
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I was going to wait untill I got my hands dirty to start this, but I have been thinking about it so much lately I figured what the hell. If I start a log, at least I will have a record of all of my questions and thoughts.
I have a bare Pilot chassis with roll bar attached as a starting point. My original plan was to stick a polaris 400cc engine in it. I believe this engine can be found in the scrambler and trailblazer. It is a two smoke, which I am not too fond of. It also needs essential parts, such as pipe, carb, and cdi to run. The up side is that from what I can tell this thing has never been run. I planned on building a forward only chaincase and am still undecided on axles.
Plans however can change. My second thought is to put an engine from a 2006 kawasaki 650r in it and just use a cassette. Since I have this bike, I have spent lots of time looking it over and I think it would be a great powerplant. It is a very compact inline twin four stroke that is fuel injected and liquid cooled. I don't want to tear down the bike I have since it is only a few years old and it just wouldn't be right. I recently found one on crashed toys for very cheap and am now forced to make a quick decision. The plus side is I am familiar with its performance and since I own the same model I could save some of the take off parts for spares. The down side is that although I have the cash to buy the wrecked one, I really should not be spending it due to my lack of income and uncertain financial future. So I want to know what you guys think. Here is a link to the dyno charts, wrecked bike, and pics of my frame.
http://www.crashedtoys.com/index.php?fuseaction=car.view&id=2485747 (http://www.crashedtoys.com/index.php?fuseaction=car.view&id=2485747)
http://www.twobros.com/Cust_Service/Dyno_Charts/Ninja650R_2006_hp&torq.pdf (http://www.twobros.com/Cust_Service/Dyno_Charts/Ninja650R_2006_hp&torq.pdf)
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Boost,
I'm glad you got a build log started
I live about 50 miles from the stillwater crashed toys.com Just tossing that out there for a just in case you need it shipped
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I know you do, ;D. I was meaning to ask you about that. So what do you do with lawn tractors?
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I grew up mowing commercially,
Last year I decided to go back to mowing, It's gotten to be a touph gig...Gotta compete with hi-schooler's who aren't licenced,insured ,or paying taxes...I'll start a thread so not to jack your build
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Set a budget and place a bid - motivation to find more work. If it was meant to be, then you win, else DO NOT GO OVER THE BUDGET!
BTY, I was thinking of getting the Ninja 650 as my first road bike. I don't want a pure sports bike. Also maybe the Suzuki 650f, any feed back on the Ninja as a touring / sports bike?
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It's a good bike. out of the box I had positioning problems. I'm 5' 6" 160lbs athletic build for reference. after an hour of riding my ass would hurt because the seat kept making me to slide forward. This caused kind of a bruised rug burn feeling that would last a day or two. Different bars seemed to help. Mileage wise I was getting mid 50's. Speed, I have had it up to 120 or so indicated then my head started flopping so I slowed down. accel is decent. cruising about 65mph it's just getting into it's power band. I've got about 5000 miles on it and over all I am happy. insurance isn't bad if you got the right company. The company I was with wanted $2500 a year for liability only :o. I told them to cancel all my coverage and go fook themselves on the spot. Progressive is only $84 a year for liability. It's no busa, but it's no moped either.
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Was that frame on fire at one time. It looks like it burnt down
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no fire. previous owner stripped it down and started sanding it with scotchbrite or something and then gave up and left the frame outside. It is a mix between the original red, flat black, grey primer, and rust. the rust is all just on the surface and sand blasting would make it all like new again.
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Here's some pics I found of the engine I am considering. What do you think? Three major benefits of going with this over my 400cc polaris.
1. It's four stroke
2. It's fuel injected
3. It would prolly cost more for the parts to get the 400cc running and geared than the donor bike and cassette would cost me.
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Anybody think this would be a good/bad engine for the project? Any idea's where to draw the line on cost of engine? Did I post this on the wrong site? :t
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Anybody think this would be a good/bad engine for the project? Any idea's where to draw the line on cost of engine? Did I post this on the wrong site? :t
a gixxer 600 can be had on ebay for around 5-600 bux, 4 cylinder... I tend to draw the line for 600cc and less to 500 and under myself, How much is the asking price?
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Is it complete, all electrics and t bodies? Probably a fine choice for the pilot chassis, small and light...
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Imo, scratch the cassette idea...Put a big ass sprocket on it and call it good...
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bike is on crashed toys. appears to have been layed down. bike is a 2008 and is at $325 including buyers fee. ends tues so I got to decide.
that's what I meant by cassette. short shaft with cvs on both ends. sprocket and brake disk in the middleish. simple as it gets.
325 right now.... I dont see how you could go wrong... cassette equals on chain to another shaft with a second chain down... Been there done that, waisted a lot of money, some people have had great success with it tho....
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I guess your def. of cassette is closer to the word than mine.
This is what I was thinking.
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Mos of us would call that a center carrier. A cassette is different in that it is specifically designed to lower the CV's for reduced angle and it offers smaller sprockets. Think of two plates with upper and lower sprockets sandwiched, and a drive sprocket on the outside of the cassette for the engine to drive.
Here's a link to rorty's page showing a cassette. http://www.rorty-design.com/images/cassette01.jpg
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I would call that a jack shaft type arrangement. No matter what it is called, the pic I posted is along the lines of what I was thinking.
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I still say, set a budget and go for it. Besides, you will be getting some stuff off the bike you can part out???? That might raise the top value of your bid, but stick with the budget.....
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how do you set a budget on a hobby or open ended project? there are several parts on the bike that would find thier way into the buggy, or onto my bike. the rest could be sold but this model has only been out since '06 so there doesn't seem to be much of a market for stock parts yet...I guess if I got cold feet I could fix the bike and sell it.
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how do you set a budget on a hobby or open ended project?
Based on what you can afford and the value to you for this element/component when other options are taken into consideration. There are other busted bikes out there to draw from if this one does not work out.
This model has only been out since '06 so there doesn't seem to be much of a market for stock parts yet..
Exactly. The market is on a the "up swing." Another year of being in production will result in greater demand. Ever wonder why the cars on the top of the "stolen" list are the same as the sales leaders? Seems salvage value goes up with increase in unit sales.
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Yummi's got a good point,
Most cars/bikes/sleds are worth more in parts than they are running, I know a guy who buys new bikes just to pull the BUSA motors for his buggies, then sells the rest to the insurance companies for parts, These bikes are 0 miles off the showroom floor so to speak..
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Ok, I been thinking on this for a while now and I think I've got a game plan. I would like to do a chain case driven by a cvt. This way I can design and build a part at a time to keep the major spending to a minimum, or at least spread it out. I also found a thread by Kludge at the other site that says he used vw golf/jetta axles cuz they have a type 2? cv on the inside and a cv/stub combo on the outside. Then he machined his own bearing carriers and used vw hubs. I checked with the local auto store today and found out the brand new axles with cvs are about $63 each. I have two easy choices for widths because driver and passenger axles are different lengths and cost the same. I am not going for huge travel here so I think these axles will work nicely, especially if I don't have to modify them. I am still undecided on the engine choice, but I do have a favorite that I am keeping an eye out for.
I will prolly end up putting my polaris 400 two smoke in for starters and swap it out for a 4-stroke sled engine later. The one I really like is the yamaha genesis 80. It's a 500cc twin 4-stroke putting out 80hp and I think it's fuel injected, I will have to look that up again to be sure. I think I have a workable chaincase design, I just have to get it drawn up and find out what machining is gonna cost me. I have not ruled out an RPM box, but that's a lot of cash in one shot that I really shouldn't spend right now. So we'll have to see how the chain case Idea works out. Money is money, but if I spread it out over time I don't feel so guilty for spending it on toys. Anyways, that's were I'm at in my head.
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I'm thinking I want a three link rear end for simplicity. Can anybody tell me off the top of their head how the amount of plunge would compare to a trailing arm, semi trailing arm, a-arm, or five link?
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I would make it either a 5-link or a modified 5-link like the stock suspension so that you can use the original suspension mounts.
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The rear lower tubes are all going to be redone so the mounts will be lost anyways. I was thinking the three link would mount to the original front mount and the others will be new material anyway. Eventhough this is a pilot frame. It won't have any pilot bolt on parts when done. I haven't actually touched the frame yet, just been modifying in my head. I would actually prefer to start from scratch, but as long as I have this frame, I think I'll use it. I would be happy to sell it and start from scratch if somebody was to make a reasonable offer. At this point, nothing is set in stone.
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If switching to a 3 link, you would only need the rear lower link mounting point and the rear upper. If cutting anything in between those and the forward lower link mount out, I would stretch it between. The forward link could stand to be longer anyway. The upper forward point is really close, but would not be needed with a 3 link.
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I agree. The forward mount could be moved closer or ahead of the seat belt mount. I was planning on redoing the tubes that the tranny and motor mounted to. Moving the curve where the tranny was farther back to allow me a little more engine and tranny room. I have dies for 1 1/2" tube so I was just going to cut them off and bend my own. I also need to add provisions for a motor mount plate. I figure if I make a squareish plate and mount the motor to that then when I decide to upgrade the motor I can just make a new plate and bolt it in rather than modifying the frame again.
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chaincase parts. I think I'm gonna do a double single setup with size 40/41 chain. Here is what I've got drawn so far. 1.75" flange to flange, could be narrowed a little but I thought I'd leave at leas a little clearance. ;D
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Any tips on drawing cvs, sprockets, bearings?
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here's an update on the center section for the chaincase. still looking for help drawing cvs and sprockets.
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No ooo's or aaawww's or even bashing? Do I need to post boobies or something to get a response? ???
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Boobies are always good!
Are the seals going to ride on the cv's? Which CV's are you planning? Your looking at double 40 chain? Have you checked the strength numbers? Were you planning to bolt a sprocket on each side of the pink piece? Do you want two chains, or double chain? There is a difference. For the double chain the width has to be right on. They make double sprockets for double chain. Go take a look at martin..... all the info you need:
http://www.martinsprocket.com/home.htm (http://www.martinsprocket.com/home.htm)
it's easy to draw sprockets. draw a line, polar array for the number of teeth. offset some lines that represent the chain pitch. the intersection of your chain pitch and arrayed lines are at the pitch diameter. Draw a circle there the size of the chain roller. Now array the circles. Now look up the sprocket od on martin. draw a circle that size. draw some lines tangent to the chain rollers that meet at the od circle. trim a bunch of shit, erase everything but one tooth, array it for the number of teeth, and bingo you have a sprocket. ;)
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I finally broke down and just bought a CV. First decide if your serious about the project, then go spend $50 for a whole halfshaft, and start measuring. No one makes any info available so you just have to buy the part, then work it into the design.
What I have found anyway.
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Double single. Two single chains. I can buy sprockests with that bolt pattern for about $18 each from my karting catalog. From what I have seen the two #40 chains together have a higher tensile than the one 530 the donor atv used, a little iffy on that. I don't different sources seem to have conflicting info but all say two #40 chains are stronger. yes seal runs on cv, so does bearing. if I get a cv drawn up I will add it and "assemble" all the parts. Half shafts I am looking at have a type 2 inner I believe. I was going to run that for starters and maybe swap it for a type 4 later. The sprockets bolt through the largest part of the magenta piece. I am thinking I might add 6 more holes and thread that piece, but then I will have to run a sprocket with a multiple of six tooth count so all the teeth line up correctly. I am now thinking 12/60 or 12/66 ratio and finding a larger driven pulley to make up for it, or I might drop to a #35 chain, which would be iffy on the power handling. The bearings also center and tie the whole assembly together. Maybe I'll draw the sprockets later tonite. I'm building a staircase now and that's kinda using all my brain power. ;D
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I feel like I'm talking to myself here but here's the whole center section with cv's and sprockets added in assembled form. next thing to do is the case I suppose.
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Boost,
I'm just not following...Maybe I'm thick ???
Why 2 chians? The added I think is going to be a problem, Plus the maintenance on 2... I understand that if one fails...
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With two chains I can run a smaller size chain which means smaller OD sprocket with the same gear ratio. Plus two chains = higher total tensile strength and in theory longer chain and sprocket life because load is spread over more surface area.
60t #530 pitch dia. = 11.95"
60t #40 pitch dia. = 9.56"
60t #35 pitch dia. = 7.17"
I am trying to get as much reduction in one step as possible without building a huge unit.
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I understand that if one fails...
Then it wads up and your DONE!
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Then it wads up and your DONE!
can't argue with that.
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Gotcha, I never thought about the finer chains getting the gearing where you want it to be :-[
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You might think about gear drive, three gears.... Stronger, and probably more compact. Jeffco's use gears. I saw a picture of the inside once, and they are really simple, plus the gears can be smaller at the same ratio.
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Gears would be prefered if I could find some that are off the shelf and strong enough, not to mention cheap. That's a tall order, any Ideas on how to fill it?
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Gears would be prefered if I could find some that are off the shelf and strong enough, not to mention cheap. That's a tall order, any Ideas on how to fill it?
Cant use those three in same sentence. Very narrow rear. I'm watching this one.
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Cant use those three in same sentence.
That's why I chose chain drive....If I wanted to spend that kind of money I would just buy a rpm box. I just like to build shit, it's more about the process than the finished product. ;D
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I got you, hadn't thought about the tooth size changing the sprocket diameter ???. And depending on weight of buggy the two smaller chains/sprockets ( of good quality) should do the trick.
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for my pilot, goal is 600lbs or less and 40hp to 80hp. The last buggy I built was kind of sidewinder style somewhere around 35hp and 320lbs. so I think my goal is reasonable.
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Boost,
I'm glad you got a build log started
I live about 50 miles from the stillwater crashed toys.com Just tossing that out there for a just in case you need it shipped
were abouts you live? you far from New Richmond, Wis?
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who? spec or me?
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I used to live in hudson...
Now I'm about an hour from you...
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Spec you have a buggy? Where do you ride around these parts?
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Spec you have a buggy? Where do you ride around these parts?
Do I have a buggy...I have 2 for sale...
Well 1 for sale, and they just closed my favorite riding place 7 mins from my house...Some fookin stupid cxxt wants to reintroduce .....
Prairie dogs...We might run them over by accident...NOT...NO FOOKIN ACCIDENT ABOUT IT...I used to shoot the little fookers for the bounty...
10 year old with a 223...Box's of match grade GI issueed MATCH GRADE ammo...= lots of spray ;D
Looks like it'll be cross bow time...no sound and lots of Muskie bait ;)
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10 year old with a 223...Box's of match grade GI issueed MATCH GRADE ammo...= lots of spray ;D
How many box's per dog?
J/K ;D ;D ;D
WTH is the world coming to? Closing riding areas to protect prarie dogs huh. If they think those dogs are endangered they need to come visit Kansas for re-education.
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or western nebraska or colorado.. land owners pay to have people come kill em.
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What cv's are you using.have you checked what is available in bearings that size and cost? The seals will be pricey also. Just mentioning it in case you hadn't thought about that part.
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What cv's are you using.have you checked what is available in bearings that size and cost? The seals will be pricey also. Just mentioning it in case you hadn't thought about that part.
Type 2 or 4 as stated previously ;). I already made a list with part#'s, prices, sources. I have it around here somewhere, but I'm going to leave it hidden till I can actually build something. Off the top of my head I think 2 bearings and 2 seals where like $150 or $250.
That doesn't scare me, the machining is where the money will be at. I'm working on that though (slowly, very slowly). I could prolly scrounge up some material if I knew somebody that had a VMC they wanted to test out (cough, cough) ;D.
No, really though. This project has been put on the back burner till I can get moved ::). Right now I am still working on the house and trying to scrape together enough cash to buy another welder without the GF finding out. ;D Got a job lined up that a Maxstar would make a whole lot easier.
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Type 2 or 4 as stated previously ;). I already made a list with part#'s, prices, sources. I have it around here somewhere, but I'm going to leave it hidden till I can actually build something. Off the top of my head I think 2 bearings and 2 seals where like $150 or $250.
That doesn't scare me, the machining is where the money will be at. I'm working on that though (slowly, very slowly). I could prolly scrounge up some material if I knew somebody that had a VMC they wanted to test out (cough, cough) ;D.
No, really though. This project has been put on the back burner till I can get moved ::). Right now I am still working on the house and trying to scrape together enough cash to buy another welder without the GF finding out. ;D Got a job lined up that a Maxstar would make a whole lot easier.
Cough,cough,I MIGHT be able to help once i get a few things done.Be likely late fall tho.