DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => Chassis and Suspension => Topic started by: Generalg on December 04, 2023, 10:06:46 AM
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Thanks to @BrianN for getting me in contact with his brother Barry. WOW Barry does some NICE work!!! The Jackson arm is fixed and braced on both arms. It was determined thanks to Harkins, that a side horizontal load break occurred, not a vertical break like you would of thought.
During test fitting the arm and now rebuilding the shocks with new shafts I realized I have a crap ton of BUMP STEER! beathorse.gif~c200 beathorse.gif~c200
The previous owner had upgraded to 2" hollow's with new spindles/hubs etc. During that swap the an abundance of bump steer was created. This was the result of the new spindles not utilizing the correct location of the tierod. The original combo spindles designed from Jackson had the correct geometry, however I do not have these to compare to. Short of hacking off the current tierod mount on the spindle and moving the mounting point upward risking the tierod mount VERY close to the wheel. What about a dropped heim separator/spreader fabricated to use on the Howe steering rack? Would a drop of 1 1/4" to 1 3/8" on the Howe rack put more stress/cause premature failure on the Howe rack or stay away from this idea? Suggestions? Ideas?
(https://i.postimg.cc/5HGyK5C8/PXL-20231203-193829993.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HGyK5C8)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t7FJDxCV/PXL-20231203-193838390.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/t7FJDxCV)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZvzR4TjR/PXL-20231203-224641630.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZvzR4TjR)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4mZd0xm2/PXL-20231203-224837420.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4mZd0xm2)
(https://i.postimg.cc/r0rmBd13/PXL-20231203-231826299.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/r0rmBd13)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BP5vvdwC/PXL-20231204-013910426.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BP5vvdwC)
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I dont like that idea. When i get home Ill look at bigger pics tho.
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I took another look at it. I would relocate the outer tie rod mount on the knuckle. IMO,it is the best ,by far,option and ,of course,the most work. I do not like the relocating of the inner as you indicate. I see it putting a much larger axial twist to the rack itself which are not all that great in the first place against that wear and tear. Bottom line the only way I would take is relocating the outer tie rod mount.
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BTW,I would experiment on the tie rod length and the outer mount clocking and length till I had all the bumpsteer gone or at the very least had a max of 1/2". It is well worth the effort.
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BTW,I cheat at this and use performance trends suspension analyzer.
https://www.performancetrends.com/SuspAnzr.htm
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Great info, thank you. I know that was probably the answer all along but if it's not worth doing right it's not worth doing! I will play around with the tie rod length.
Thank you
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Well brian n's brother laid down some nice welds! The braces look great too. Mike would know how it broke for sure.
As far as the bump steer goes, I agree with fabr. Change the steering arm on the spindle body, rather then the rack. That would create a load the rack couldn't handle and it will bend.
As you climb the spindle, following the line through the a arm bolts, you steering arm will come in with the sai or king pin angle of the spindle body. Should eliminate the rim clearance issue or atleast would appear too. As far said, stroke that front end to find the select spot before permanent changes are made. I have not tried the program he linked but its got to be a good one
I would weld a new steering arm tab above the existing, using the top of the existing. Then cut the lower half off and clean up the edges. Weld a brace between the 2 steering arms to sort of box them and I see no reason you won't be fine. The only person I know that might have some extra steering arms is doug. I designed a diff spindle for my a arm kits but the bodies and steering arms look very similar. You may contact him and ask if he has 2 steering arms left.
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What about just moving the steering rack down about 1 3/4"? The 2 bars the rack is currently on, cut those out and weld new brackets to the lower larger main tubes? All knowing a longer steering tube would be needed also. Seems like a lot simpler fix....?
(https://i.postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq/PXL-20231205-144802334.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq)
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What about just moving the steering rack down about 1 3/4"? The 2 bars the rack is currently on, cut those out and weld new brackets to the lower larger main tubes? All knowing a longer steering tube would be needed also. Seems like a lot simpler fix....?
(https://i.postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq/PXL-20231205-144802334.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq)
that seems like a lot more work to myself. absolutely that is an option but cutting off the steering arms or adding a tab above the steering arm to raise attachment point seems far simpler imo.
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What about just moving the steering rack down about 1 3/4"? The 2 bars the rack is currently on, cut those out and weld new brackets to the lower larger main tubes? All knowing a longer steering tube would be needed also. Seems like a lot simpler fix....?
(https://i.postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq/PXL-20231205-144802334.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq)
That would work as well and if you ever damaged a knuckle you would be able to likely to buy a replacement and not have to modify it. Either approach will work. I actually prefer this BUT....
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What about just moving the steering rack down about 1 3/4"? The 2 bars the rack is currently on, cut those out and weld new brackets to the lower larger main tubes? All knowing a longer steering tube would be needed also. Seems like a lot simpler fix....?
(https://i.postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq/PXL-20231205-144802334.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8jrGcyDq)
If the alignment of the rack tie rod heim is thrown out of alignment with top arm pivot and bottom arm pivot you will possibly/likely need to make a different rack adapter also(it will likely be too wide then) if you go this route to bring all 3 pivot points in line with each other.
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So I know how much toe change is created when my tie rod is off 1/8" , so I cannot imagine 1 3/8" off. Didnt someone buy Jackson sand cars? If so can you buy a pair of axles with correct steering arm placement?
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Kartek sells replacement steering arms.
https://www.kartek.com/parts/replacement-driver-side-steering-bracket-for-our-combo-link-king-kong-2-hollow-a-arm-spindles.html
They also sell weld together 2" or 2.5" hollow spindle kits. This way you could build new with the arms In the correct spot.
https://www.kartek.com/parts/kartek-off-road-driver-side-unwelded-heavy-duty-a-arm-buggy-spindle-for-2-or-2-12-hollow-spindles.html
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So I know how much toe change is created when my tie rod is off 1/8" , so I cannot imagine 1 3/8" off. Didnt someone buy Jackson sand cars? If so can you buy a pair of axles with correct steering arm placement?
There is a guy in Winfield that bought some (?) of Phil's tooling. He made a new spindle for me after I hit a big witches eye in Glamis. Let me know if you need his contact info
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So I know how much toe change is created when my tie rod is off 1/8" , so I cannot imagine 1 3/8" off. Didnt someone buy Jackson sand cars? If so can you buy a pair of axles with correct steering arm placement?
There is a guy in Winfield that bought some (?) of Phil's tooling. He made a new spindle for me after I hit a big witches eye in Glamis. Let me know if you need his contact info
i would give this winfield person a call. if he just so happens to have the jig for the spindles on your rail, i would buy it !! you can make a fixture for your a arms but if he has the jig for that too, buy it while your there. i hope you never need them again but piece of mind.
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Made a template out of cardboard, took it to the the local FabWorx shop just 2 blocks away from me cut a test piece out. A quick cycle of the suspension without shocks shows the bumpsteer much improved. The lower arm is exactly the same angle as the tie rod now. The test piece has moved the rod end mount down 1 3/8" and inward 1/2". The final piece will be dual brackets for double sheer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BjGvv13m/PXL-20240321-180359613.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BjGvv13m)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VSfLqQdM/PXL-20240326-162207488.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSfLqQdM)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wd61qbbT/PXL-20240326-162212984.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Wd61qbbT)
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how much bump steer now?
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how much bump steer now?
Went from 3.5" to 1/2" or less now. A before and after video showing the difference.
Original Mount - https://youtu.be/AufF-DL2yAY?si=tnXeeB5NGQVzD30B
New Mount - https://youtu.be/4FD5iMj9yK8?si=E5VHFlcC5LX7baIj
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At one point, did you mention that this was Phil's personal rail? Or one of them anyway.
That was a lot of bump and you did a great job fixing the problem.
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At one point, did you mention that this was Phil's personal rail? Or one of them anyway.
That was a lot of bump and you did a great job fixing the problem.
Thanks, it was a lot of trial and error.
Yes, this was his personal car he built then sold. During that time of his build/ownership it has combo spindles with the tie rod mounting point almost all the way towards the top of the spindle, also not double sheer. I found out that Carl has one of the spindles still. Hopefully able to pick it up from Carl someday.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pmQyD8b6/428957928-889596022956518-6551231547686951308-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pmQyD8b6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RWxN6d8t/428981011-1067039057914974-5297455310644596472-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RWxN6d8t)
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Trial and error definitely works! You won't even feel 1/2" of bump on pavement.
I am surprised his personal rail had that much bump.
I hope carl has that spindle. Would be a good idea to have some parts made and make a jig fixture from it....just in case. I hope you never need one but just in case.