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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Motor and Drivetrain => Topic started by: CrazyFastFab on March 31, 2012, 11:53:45 AM
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Where is the best place to get U-joint Axles? I have a Jeffco so one end needs to have 930 flanges on them. Is there a way to skip the 930 micro sub and connect the axle directly to the wheel bearing? Thanks,
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Where is the best place to get U-joint Axles? I have a Jeffco so one end needs to have 930 flanges on them. Is there a way to skip the 930 micro sub and connect the axle directly to the wheel bearing? Thanks,
:-X
https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=54&osCsid=81 (https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22&products_id=54&osCsid=81)
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Why not try non plunge cv's and slip joint axles like these? NONE of the plunging 930 issues at all. No heat and 40 degrees each way .
https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66&osCsid=81 (https://www.rcvperformance.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=66&osCsid=81)
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Thanks, every car/ATV I have ever owned has had CV's and I have hated them. I have read all the blogs on which is better. This time I think I am going to try the u joints.
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All you've likely read about were all the issues with plunging 930 cv's. Non plunge have none of those issues.
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Seems to be a lot of price swing in U-joints, from cheap to 60 payment plan. A good 930 setup with proper plunge and angle limits is a solid driveline.
With saying that, I'm running or will be, a inner fixed 930 from rcv and f150 outer and limit them to 35*.
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And you'll be fine since they both go 40 or more degrees. To me ,yes,uj shafts work. I just feel the non plunging cv based ones are a bit better especially if running a/h arm rear with little to no axle plunge like we are. There is a bit of plunge available in the splines of about 1/2" running the non plunge 930's so with them and a well designed rear there's no need for slip axles either. I will be doing away with mine soon and returning to solid axles. In either case a lot of axle plunge is not as desirable as lesser plunge. Bottom line,try to design rear the suspension whether trailing arm,semi-trailing arm ,a arms,or any other with the minimum plunge that can be had to avoid as many problems as possible with axles and cv's/uj's.
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The F-150 CV has the same spline as the current 930 micro stubs as well. The CV and flange are all one piece.
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I have used uj's for years and I too do not like cv's but I am using the 930 non plunge on my current build to try something different. the nice thing about the 930 np's is the angle and cost vs the other but we will see. the steeper the angle on the u-j's the faster they wear vs a cv which is more angle = more heat which is what kills them but the tq rating doesn't decrease either like a uj does at extreme angle but you don't get the high heat like the cv either so it's really a personal choice. I have some adaptor flanges if you want to have a local shop build you some shafts otherwise the good cv's are a good choice.
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What years F150's used these cv's ?
Thanks in advance
Rich
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99-02 f150 4x4. Contact Livewire on here for just the outter cv/stub or you can buy the whole axle locally and pull off the parts you need. BTW the inner joint is not a high angle joint.
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99-02 f150 4x4. Contact Livewire on here for just the outter cv/stub or you can buy the whole axle locally and pull off the parts you need. BTW the F150inner joint is not a high angle joint.
Just clarifying. :)
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http://www.aftershockmotorsports.com/Custom-Buggy-Parts/Driveline/High-Angle-Heavy-Duty-CV-Joint (http://www.aftershockmotorsports.com/Custom-Buggy-Parts/Driveline/High-Angle-Heavy-Duty-CV-Joint)
That CV not only fits the EMPI micro stub bearings, it will also fit an Intrepid bearing which is similar, but 5 on 4.5 instead of 5 on 4.75. 5 on 4.5 is much more common pattern. That is the bearing in the picture I posted above. The axles are 28" EMPI axles for 930 joints.
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What I am sick of is rebuilding CV's so this time I want to try the U-joints. Yes I know each has issues but I would like to try new issues.
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Some of those issues are going to be getting parts since everyone figures out and builds stuff toward CVs.
I would suggest looking at using the U-joints that are used in a Dana 44 solid front axle. That will get you the stub and U-joint yoke as one piece. The Dana 44 was used in all big 3 trucks in the past so you have a quite a selection of parts to choose from that will interchange. My '79 Blazer that was full time 4x4 did not have lock outs, but did have the hubs. There was just a gear that was driven by the stub and fit into the splines inside the hub. You could make your own aluminum hubs instead of the cast iron ones. The spindle bolts to the knuckle so you could get that off the shelf to bolt to a custom knuckle. There were some Dodges that I know of which did not have external hubs at all so would have shorter stub axles. I don't know what the internals looked like though. I don't know for sure, but I think the Dana 44 output stubs are the same 33 spline as the '97 F-150 and the Intrepid. If the Dodge is the same, you may be able to use it's stub shaft with the Intrepid hub/bearing combo.
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If you can't find an off the shelf stub that will fit into the micro stub bearings, I can cut male splines. I have micro stubs and bearings on hand to verify fit. I can cut down 2 yokes and re-spline them to fit the bearings. The pivot point will likely be closer to the bearing than with the F-150 CV posted above. So you would have less U-joint angle than the CV for the same width. That might be limited on the inside though by the time you add two different plates, etc. I just looked at the Jeffco site to see what the output flanges look like. They appear to be standard off the shelf 930 flanges, probably conversion flanges. If they are say standard Type 2 or 091 to 930 conversion flanges, then I would look into using a pair of those flanges make a part of the axle. I would cut off the flange itself (unless needed to mount the brake disk) and weld the U-joint yoke to the remaining female spline. That way you can get the pivot point as close to the trans as possible. The tricky part is getting the snap ring in there if that is how the flanges are mounted. You'll need to leave enough room to get snap ring pliers in behind the U-joint to get the ring on.
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there is no snap ring and they are not standard 002 or 091 or t1 conversion flanges since they fit the stock focus r&p inside. the stand off for the adaptor u-joint flange is roughly 2.25" and would ONLY be needed on the box side since at the wheel a stock wheel bearing and stock stub with a conversion u-joint will connect directly to a 1310 series shaft which will be fine for a na app as long as the rail doesn't way 1600 lbs + nor have 33" + tall tires!! 1300's or 11's or blaster 26's on a 12" rim will be good and the wheel bearing has a 5 on 4.5" bp so douglas offers a 12" for it as well as several 15" out there on the market. I have run these parts on v-6 and bike so I know they work but on the v-6 I wound up going with 1350's cause I had to make new ones any way thaks to that pos felix at the drive shaft super store and his pos product!! enemy was doing fine with his 1310's and they are still running on a r1 rail to this day but when he started turning the turbo up i suggested 1350's especially since I was having a set built anyway.
the wheel bearing is stock over the counter and so is the spicer stub axle. the conversion u-joint to go from internal snap ring to external snap ring can be purchased at most parts stores as well but imo only buy rockford joints!! several other brands but they won't make the day. if you go 1310 series then get the fun in the mud rockford joints cause they come with the zerts in the cap instead of the star cross so they are stronger and easier to grease.
any drive shaft store that cares about there product can build the shafts the only thing you will have to buy is the adaptor plate or since your good with cad, draw one up and have them laser cut to fit 930 bp. also imo I wouldn't use anything less than rockford quality parts and I only say this cause I have used them for years w/o issues aside from self inflicted once ;D :D :o ;) :)
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oh ya the wheel bearing is '97 jeep cherokee not grand cherokee and no abs, off the front axle to guys not the rear. also you want the stock stub axle off the front and not the updated one with the larger yoke you want the original dana 30 stub which spicer does still make so don't let them tell you otherwise just because they are lazy!! I don't have the p/n for the conversion joint anymore but I bet enemy still has a box or a p/n so you'll have to ask him. this joint lets you attach the dana 30 stub to a 1310 only drive shaft. the rest is up to you to the builder to figure out! also when selecting the 1310 series yokes make sure you get the ones that are stock 30* off the shelf and the dana 30 stub will handle that and more so your good to go w/0 maching yokes for higher angles but set your shocks so the shock at full extension holds the axle at 29* and limit strap at 28* so once it's stretched your close. or you can rub 2* more clearence out of the yoke and set them at 30* with the shock at full extension. before each trip grease the joints good and the slip shaft to be on the safe side.
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I am about to laser cut 5/16. I already have a CAD file for a disk to fit 930 patterns. I had some rings made the last batch of 5/16. I would just need a diameter for a center hole in the disk.
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I don't have the p/n for the conversion joint anymore but I bet enemy still has a box or a p/n so you'll have to ask him
P/N K5291P2
Lists on receipt as "1310WJ/1310"
Price as of 10/08 was $21.07?? Wow...Im bettin they probably went up in price a bit eyes
Rockford Driveline
1500 11th Avenue
Rockford, IL 61104
815-962-1411
http://rockforddriveline.com/ (http://rockforddriveline.com/)
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Anybody thought about using 91+ Cherokee Stubs, U-Joints, and Unit Bearings? 27 spline stub with a 297X joint... Seems easy enough to fab up some old drive-lines with slip shafts for axles, and have some adapters made for the other end for your cassette or whatever setup you've got. Hell use the Jeep outer half with a u joint, turn down the shaft a little, weld it into your slip shaft, turn down a type 4 or 930 axle, weld it in the other end of your slip shaft, stick it in your type 4 or 930 CV, bolt it up? U joint outer with easy high angle outers, plunging, and it can still mate up to your transaxle.
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Anybody thought about using 91+ Cherokee Stubs, U-Joints, and Unit Bearings? 27 spline stub with a 297X joint... Seems easy enough to fab up some old drive-lines with slip shafts for axles, and have some adapters made for the other end for your cassette or whatever setup you've got. Hell use the Jeep outer half with a u joint, turn down the shaft a little, weld it into your slip shaft, turn down a type 4 or 930 axle, weld it in the other end of your slip shaft, stick it in your type 4 or 930 CV, bolt it up? U joint outer with easy high angle outers, plunging, and it can still mate up to your transaxle.
that is what we have been talking about with p/n#'s and have been using for several years now.
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that is what we have been talking about with p/n#'s and have been using for several years now.
Sorry man. Didn't even see your post. Guess I should've read it all and not just skimmed. Just got a little excited! There are PILES of Cherocar parts here in Central Oregon, and shafts are about $15 each at the yards here. Most have brand new bearings, brakes, and joints. Cash for clunkers effects years later... Myself, I'd get two long side shafts, cut and machine them down to slip into a slip shaft section. Just rosette weld the slip shaft onto the axle shaft. The chassis end of the shafts would need to be figured out by the end user based on their needs as you said. Just trying to help...
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All help and ideas are appreciated here. Don't hesitate to voice an opinion either!
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Sorry man. Didn't even see your post. Guess I should've read it all and not just skimmed. Just got a little excited! There are PILES of Cherocar parts here in Central Oregon, and shafts are about $15 each at the yards here. Most have brand new bearings, brakes, and joints. Cash for clunkers effects years later... Myself, I'd get two long side shafts, cut and machine them down to slip into a slip shaft section. Just rosette weld the slip shaft onto the axle shaft. The chassis end of the shafts would need to be figured out by the end user based on their needs as you said. Just trying to help...
ya they work well and i figured you didn't get it all read and yes all opinions are welcome on this sight! there is no need to weld a stub on though when you can buy a conversion joint.
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Crazy Fast Fab, Im in the same boat looking to build a Ujoint axle setup. I have researched different ideas and ways of going about it but cant seem to pinpoint much Off The Shelf stuff. Its mostly custom built setups, which is fine with me if I can figure out what are the best parts to go about setting up.
Im running a 35 HP Briggs V to an RPM Transfer case so its not a ton of horsepower to be worrying about. But it would be nice to set it up to maybe throw in a 600+cc Motorcycle engine in the future.
I have 930 inner joints and I'd have to build new trailing arms with most likely Intrepid hubs and 930 Micros. I have yet to find an off the shelf 1310 yoke that has a 930 bolt up flange.
Driveshaft Superstore sells a 1310 and 1350 buggy axle setup with 7 inches of plunge for 550-650 for the pair along with Ujoints and 930 flanges.
They also sell weldable 1310 yokes for 2" and 3" which I thought I could have some flanges plasma cut out with 930 bolt pattern, then weld the 1310 yokes to it. Then I could get 2 early Toyota 4x4 Front Driveshafts and take them to my local Driveshaft shop and have them cut and welded to length. Ive read about someone using Toyota driveshafts but Im not sure what the plunge is yet on them.
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DSRace,
Im researching your 97 Cherokee setup and I think Im understanding it a bit better now. The hard part is that Rockford doesn't have a very user friendly clear website or search. But I Googled the Cherokee parts and Im getting a better idea of what your talking about. Instead of using a micro stub 930 joint on like an f150 hub, your using the Cherokee Hub with the dana 30 axle stub/yoke right?
If im correct, then using the axle yoke is actually much better then a Micro stub because you gain about an inch or more of axle length putting the Yoke closer to the outer hub.
Would you happen to have any pics of your setup?
Are these the parts your using on your setup? I just pulled them from google to get an idea of the parts.
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/wheel-bearing-hub-front/Jeep/Cherokee/1ASHF00011/322167/1997?utm_campaign=gb_api_br&year=1997&utm_medium=comparisonshopping&utm_source=google_base&utm_content=SHF&gclid=CKysjPHcqbICFWjhQgodPmoAhA
Outer axle shaft:
http://www.quadratec.com/products/52433_02.htm (http://www.quadratec.com/products/52433_02.htm)
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Crazy Fast Fab, Im in the same boat looking to build a Ujoint axle setup. I have researched different ideas and ways of going about it but cant seem to pinpoint much Off The Shelf stuff. Its mostly custom built setups, which is fine with me if I can figure out what are the best parts to go about setting up.
Im running a 35 HP Briggs V to an RPM Transfer case so its not a ton of horsepower to be worrying about. But it would be nice to set it up to maybe throw in a 600+cc Motorcycle engine in the future.
I have 930 inner joints and I'd have to build new trailing arms with most likely Intrepid hubs and 930 Micros. I have yet to find an off the shelf 1310 yoke that has a 930 bolt up flange.
Driveshaft Superstore sells a 1310 and 1350 buggy axle setup with 7 inches of plunge for 550-650 for the pair along with Ujoints and 930 flanges.
They also sell weldable 1310 yokes for 2" and 3" which I thought I could have some flanges plasma cut out with 930 bolt pattern, then weld the 1310 yokes to it. Then I could get 2 early Toyota 4x4 Front Driveshafts and take them to my local Driveshaft shop and have them cut and welded to length. Ive read about someone using Toyota driveshafts but Im not sure what the plunge is yet on them.
DRIVE SHAFT SUPER STORE IS THE WORST PLACE YOU COULD EVER BUY AXLES FROM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
if you want to throw money away rather than giving it to them just send it to me or throw it in the fire!! felix is a dumb ass and a flat out liar who will be beaten over the head some day with a pair of his broken drive shafts. do a search online and you see there are plenty of guys that have been scammed by that made in china place!!
read this http://www.dtsfab.com/index/index.php?topic=31.15
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What are you trying to say,ds? Tell us how you really feel without the sugar coating.
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I did read some post on how people ended up spending twice the money because they had to buy 2 sets of drive shafts.
I guess I'll stick with Rockford if I have to get any parts.
DSRace, did you take a look at the links I posted? Are those the parts your talking about?
If so then The only part I'd have to fab myself is a flange to weld to the inner 930 CV joint and to weld a 1310 yoke to.
So far, I have only read about guys using late model Front 4x Toyota Driveshafts for axles and having them cut to size.
So Im thinking thats my best bet. From gear box outwards:
930 Inner joint with flange and welded 1310 Yoke
Toyota driveshaft cut to length
Dana 30 Axle stub from XJ/YJ
97 Cherokee XJ bearing hub
How does that sound?
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I did read some post on how people ended up spending twice the money because they had to buy 2 sets of drive shafts.
I guess I'll stick with Rockford if I have to get any parts.
DSRace, did you take a look at the links I posted? Are those the parts your talking about?
If so then The only part I'd have to fab myself is a flange to weld to the inner 930 CV joint and to weld a 1310 yoke to.
So far, I have only read about guys using late model Front 4x Toyota Driveshafts for axles and having them cut to size.
So Im thinking thats my best bet. From gear box outwards:
930 Inner joint with flange and welded 1310 Yoke
Toyota driveshaft cut to length
Dana 30 Axle stub from XJ/YJ
97 Cherokee XJ bearing hub
How does that sound?
Why would you run a 930 inner cv? A good set of U-joint axles wont be cheaper than a cv setup.
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Not the CV, just the joint that it bolts too. I think thats what its called.
From the gear box it has a 930 joint on it. The current setup has a geo outer CV with custom axles.
Its a Chinese Roketa which was built by Superkart. All Superkart did was add a FNR and put in a 35HP Briggs.
I want to make new Semi Trailing arms and relocate the engine and gear box. Then I can make the axle setup to work with the longer travel arms.
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Or is it called the 930 Cup?
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Cup. Gotcha
DS will have to give his thought on driveshafts in trailing arm cars, but I know plunging on those slip shafts is not good. Keep the plunge down.
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With TA's there is no way to prevent plunge but it can and should be controlled. I'm a fan of arm suspension as most know due to the ability to design with zero axle plunge.
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99-02 f150 4x4. Contact Livewire on here for just the outter cv/stub or you can buy the whole axle locally and pull off the parts you need. BTW the inner joint is not a high angle joint.
Actually, 97-04. 05 and up are the same spline but have the Vaclock 4X locking hub built in.
If you need something a little stronger yet, Chevy 2500 4X front joints are 33 spline, same as a 934........
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All you've likely read about were all the issues with plunging 930 cv's. Non plunge have none of those issues.
Can someone tell me the difference between plunging and non plunging cv's? What you talking about? What is a plunging CV?
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The reg cv's, vw, porsche, are plunging. Meaning the cage and balls and move in and out of cv. Non-plunge the cage and balls cant move side to side, so no plunge much like a U-joint. Either you need 0 plunge of your rear suspension system or you gotta let it plunge usually with slip axles.
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Design the suspension with zero plunge and the splines will slip enough in the stars to allow for any suspension deflection that will occur. For most people plunging cv's are the best route unless looking for max angle. Plunging 930cv's will go to approx 28 degrees while non plunging 930's will go to approx 40 degrees AND run MUCH cooler while doing so.
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The only way to get no plunge is to build the rear set up with A-arms. Trailing arms will need alot of plunge, semi trailing arms les plunge, A-arms least- no plunge.
Corresct?
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Yes.
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Mulit link? 4,5,6? I limited mine to about 35*. Boots seem to be the issue over that.
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Only problem with building rear a arms is building the spindles for the right axle bearing. A bit more complicated than just making trailing arms with a 3 bolt plate to fit a 3 bolt axle bearing.
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I don't agree on that.Correctly designing ta's is not a simple thing either.A arms can use the same simple stubs as you describe. right Carl?
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I can't think of any wheel bearing that would care which suspension design u went with. 3 bolt like most fwd cars? T-arms if built right are a set and forget. I would only build semi t-arms with outter heim so I could get camber and lessen plunge. But A arms are easier. A top and H lower.
TA's are trying to twist, tire always trying to tip in on top. But can be easier to mount out of way, can be abused a bit more(maybe) and are used on prodution cars to keep owners from screwing with them.
But standard 930's, type 2 offroad, type 4's will be more than enough for what your wanting to do and TA's will prob be easier to retro back onto a TA's car.
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Let's simplify the terminology to parallel control arms since we use several variations of "A" arms. J,A ,H,Y, whatever doesn't matter.
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Im cornfused. I going to stalk Fedex and UPS trucks........ rofl
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With an H lower, you don't need an A upper, just a single link. This can help with packaging since usually there is more crap in the way up higher.
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Mounting points are a factor also in rear H arms. Having the uppers further out a bit more help with camber change on the hub. But how much further out? Also should the arms be parallel and even in distance with the hub? Thats where there is more R&D in making Rear H arms.
My main thing in a buggy, sandcar, prerunner is that if you can fly through 2-3ft. whoops and still keep the chassis stable, then you can pretty much handle any kind of terrain. Problem with buggies is the rear wanting to buck forward. Thats where alot of shock tuning comes in play.
But after all this chat, I have been considering going with rear H arms and making driveshaft u joint axles.
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Or you could just use 930 joints and EMPI micro stubs into Intrepid wheel bearings. It is way overkill in strength, but all the pieces fit together and are readily available.
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ok now I have a free minute. on the topic of trailing arms, yep build a set and forget em like carl said. if you build them stong enough and locate them properly forward and back and side to side and the chassis is strong enough to support them.
h-arm lower with single upper link, well in theory maybe but not something I would EVER suggest to someone! ;) no offense live wire but not a good idea for 1st timer imo and not even something I would want to try.
muilti link rear end, all around support but links are able to flex so it is what it is and the easiest to tune , imo, harder to build though or more work that is. if you go muilti link then I would not even waste my time with 3 or 4 link just go 5 or 6 right off the bat.
for what you are doing with it I would say pca ( parallel control arms) rear end would probably be the all around strongest.
i have a set of used half ton axle with stubs that already built to 30* down angle and fit the '97 jeep bearing.
now If you decide to build your own then there are two types of stubs used on the cherokee, you will need to call and get the p/n # for the correct one and don't bother going to the parts store cause if there computer doesn't reach out and bitch slap them they don't know it exists even if you have it in your hand in front of them!! lol lol
trailing arms, I would say no uj's on those. so if you go that route forget the uj idea! the plunge is ok on the uj axles if you get the slip shaft with the teflon coating but if you forget to grease the slip shaft and it tq locks..... it will rip the side off you trans off and on top of that ta's add a compound angle so............ya I wouldn't go there.
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DSRace,
Im researching your 97 Cherokee setup and I think Im understanding it a bit better now. The hard part is that Rockford doesn't have a very user friendly clear website or search. But I Googled the Cherokee parts and Im getting a better idea of what your talking about. Instead of using a micro stub 930 joint on like an f150 hub, your using the Cherokee Hub with the dana 30 axle stub/yoke right?
If im correct, then using the axle yoke is actually much better then a Micro stub because you gain about an inch or more of axle length putting the Yoke closer to the outer hub.
Would you happen to have any pics of your setup?
Are these the parts your using on your setup? I just pulled them from google to get an idea of the parts.
http://www.1aauto.com/1A/wheel-bearing-hub-front/Jeep/Cherokee/1ASHF00011/322167/1997?utm_campaign=gb_api_br&year=1997&utm_medium=comparisonshopping&utm_source=google_base&utm_content=SHF&gclid=CKysjPHcqbICFWjhQgodPmoAhA
Outer axle shaft:
http://www.quadratec.com/products/52433_02.htm (http://www.quadratec.com/products/52433_02.htm)
yes but I use spicer stub and there is only the 1 style that will work which you have to order by p/n# only.
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Received my axles today. They are used but built by this company.
http://highangledriveline.com/sandrails.html (http://highangledriveline.com/sandrails.html)
These things are heavy, pretty sure these are for a 700hp monster 28 lbs a piece.
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I'll bet you got a smoking deal on them.........
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Wowsers 28#? That is a lot of beef. They will not break. Ever.
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that is pretty heavy. pull them apart and see if the splined center has a teflon coating? if not keep them greased up good or they could tq lock. a lot of companies don't use that splined center they use steel on steel both have to be greased but the teflon not as much. what is the length from center of u joint to center of u joint end for end.
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Well I took the axles apart. it appears that they are all steal. I took a bunch of pictures but can't post them in here?
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Im building a set of 1310 u joints for a buggy project. Would like to see the pics of your setup also.
Those look like 1350's.
Yoshi from Sinister sand cars uses 1350's on his Turbo Busa cars.
Ive seen the Extreme Fabrication U-joint axles on the big V8 cars with trailing arms out in Glamis, have yet to see some from High Angle Driveline.
Ive just heard nothing but "Bad" reviews from Arizona Drivelines.
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don't know who arizona drive line is but if they are affiliated with drive shaft superstore in any shape form or fashion just pull 2 $100 bills out of your pocket and throw them in a fire to cut out the middle man! lol worst company you could ever do buisness with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have a set of used u-joint axles if anyone is interested. 1310 series long story and figured I would keep them for extra's but........ might part with them.
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Thats the one DS, Driveshaft superstore.
They have a good website and pics but thats all I heard about them thats good. Everything else Ive heard about their actual products have been horrible.
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What grade bolts do you guys use to put connect the drive flanges to the drive shafts? Thanks,
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I don't run uj's but grade 8 is what you want.