DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" General Discusion => Topic started by: blokhead on January 12, 2009, 08:55:23 PM
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What snow mobile clutch can i use for this engine? I can purchase a new team primary and secondary clutch for a 800cc ski doo . the ecotec is the supercharged ion engine it puts out 205 hp would this work? i know the clutch can be tuned but can it be tuned for this horse power and still be reliable?
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Team for ski doo is splined secondary i believe.... I would use a billet clutch, Micro belmont, aaen etc... If you need a keyed team secondary, I have a 1" keyed team secondary i would sell, it is lightly used...
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What clutch would u use for this bug? How much u asking for the secondary and will it fit a f-n-r like dan sells?
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I ordered a set of plans from rorty saturday but havnt herd anything from him. Has anyone talk to him recently ?
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I would use this driven: http://www.supertorquer.com/rigid.html it comes with a steel helix which is much better in dirt. I can get you a discounted price on one too.
You might consider a Comet 4-Pro for the drive. It has 4 sets of arms instead of 3. I would use Heel Clicker arms in the drive clutch in order to transfer the Torque that engine has to the ground. They work well on the Geo Powered Drakarts.
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thanks livewire . how much is the pro-4 comet ?
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MSRP is $459.99. Can probably get for $350. That is uncalibrated. I would suggest using a Heel Clicker kit for the calibration which will come with 3 springs and adjustable weight cam arms. The cam arm are adjustable at 3 places for low, medium and high speed. I'll have to call and get a price since a 4th arm will be needed. You would also want the billet arms vs. the cast arms as the cast may break with the amount of extra weight you'll want to add the shoulder (low speed adjustment). The billet arms also have a heavier shoulder to begin with. Basically, you set up with a huge amount of effective weight at low speeds that swings around and has less effect at higher speeds. So it will upshift hard off the line taking advantage of the engine torque then taper off to prevent bogging at higher speeds. This is the opposite behavior a high revving 2 stroke would use.
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I ordered a set of plans from rorty saturday but havnt herd anything from him. Has anyone talk to him recently ?
Which plan set?I don't think anyones heard a thing out of rorty for quite some time.
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How much power can these type of clutches take reliably, can they do like 300 if you got buildy with the Ecotec? I only ask because I like the Idea of the Ecotec in my car instead of the 900 RR...
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well some of the stock oem clutches are seeing near 200...A billet one should easily double that number, lets look at torque tho, throw out that damn hp number all together....
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I ordered the r-11 plan set. I m going to fit the rear a-arm design onto the sand dragon chassis. He emailed me last night and the plans are on the way.
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Along with worrying about the torque the motors making (vs the imaginary HP as Bug ad others have said before) you also need to figure gearing and vehicle weight into it. Just cause you see a set of clutches working for one guy with a lot of power in a one seater if you add a second seat (or more) and a lot of weight OR have gearing thats to high you will not have the same luck as he did most likely.
Along with the clutches having a harder time dealing with more power from the motor end they will have more trouble with to much load from weight or poor gearing. Its the load a CVT system can carry (or any system for that matter) that needs to be worked around. You have to balance it all out.
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He's getting an RPM tranny. Dan won't let him gear too high. He'll guide him to a good final ratio.
The built sleds are running far more HP and similar torque. The billet driven is more to handle the shock load from jump landings. The steel helix is needed because the aluminum ones wear out quick in the dirt.
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OK so a mild turbo ECO with say, 300Tq and the mid 350's HP in a 1100ish buggy in sand only no dirt stuff, may be ok with the best of parts? If so that thing would FLY! I LLLLLIKE IT! I can get the ECO cheap too!
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anybody have a list of the exact parts I would need to do this?? I have had a hard time finding what I would need for this setup,,no trans just chain drive to sprocket but with the clutch doing the work to a sort of cassette drive. I am not familiar at all with these type of drives so please give me all the help you can for the list. Sorry to hi-jack but I figure my question is viable to everyone interested...
Thanks as usual!
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You'll need an adapter that bolts to the end of the crank shaft and provides the 30mm, 10:1 taper stub for the clutch to mount to. I would suggest a Comet 4-Pro drive clutch. It has 4 arms instead of 3, 4 sets of posts to transfer power, etc. I can get you one for $350. MSRP is like $475. It is uncalibrated. I would suggest a billet Heel Clicker kit for calibration. It includes 3 springs and cam arms that are adjustable in weight at 3 points for take off/low speed, mid speed and high speed. You want the billet ones because they have a heavier shoulder weight and are stronger for adding a lot of extra shoulder weight without breaking. The shoulder is for take off/low speed. You want them heavy there to upshift hard off the line taking advantage of the low end torque. I would suggest a Super Torquer Rigid billet driven clutch. A Dayco Ultimax 3 belt. I can get you everything except the adapter, at least right now.
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I wouldn't even think of doing it with a ecotech and a cassette... Need some sort of trans or don't waste your time or money...
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Why? I really don't need reverse I just want the torque!
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Why? I really don't need reverse I just want the torque!
a short chain and your reliability is gonna suck, after you replace the chain 10x your halfway to a gear box... ;D plus the money you spend to build the jackshaft...
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Ah, I see, the clutch takes some of my effective chain length away right?, but if I had enough length, it could be a great way to maximize performance no? Assuming I really don't need the reverse, as I already have the 280lbft starter motor I need to make an electric reverse incorporated into the jackshaft setup that should be fine for the occasional need.
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Also it seems a setup like this without the rev. box would be very compact since the clutch is coming off the centerline of the crankshaft rather than after the trans on a bike engine. I am just exploring a cheaper way to do the car engine without paying for a frigging 5k trans! not to mention the size, and I hate VW trannies they shift terrible. The reason I like this idea also is I got to ride in a X18 car a few weeks ago up olds hill, man that thing really flew! I was surprised with that much weight how well it performed! we were doing like 60 at the top, and he rolled through the whoops too, so no run at it, really suprised me! I figure that engine in my buggy would be a rocket! then add the turbo later.. any input?
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Before you settle on a CVT anywhere make sure you can find a belt to fit it. Many sleds have the clutches about an inch apart at thier closest point. A tiny bit of to much of the wrong belt can play havoc with a CVT's perfromance. It might get you back to the parking lot if its a LITTLE wrong but if the belt is not dead on its likely gonna suck for performance.
There are a lot of belt options out there and someone may know where to get custom or specialty belts but they usually will drive the cost of the belt WAY up and that having the extra belts (A consumable item) around might add up to the cost of a tranny before to aweful long.
A good common affordable belt is a real good thing to have with a CVT.
SO does anyone know where to find longer belts for a good price in case a person had to get around the close distance issue?
I know there were a few sleds that had a direct drive to the track. (They had no chain case) The secondary (driven) clutch was HUGE to make up the geardown and the belts were longer than heck. But it was a cruiser sled and not a power house. Those belts might not be able to deal with lotsa power and the heavier weight of the buggy. The sleds with this direct drive belt system were touted as being reallly light due the missing chain cases and all that.
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Im running stock arctic cat belts at 12 1/8" center to center distance. as i said elsewere best thing to do is set to oem specs...The ski doo 670 and 583 have rather long belts as well...
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Nutz made a good point,
You also have to keep in mind that the width of the belt is extremely important...And changes from manufacturer to manufacturer...Dayco ultimax 3 is prolly the king of belts( I think livewire already stated that)
A point that is of worthy mention is Back shifting of the secondary...
Most guys overlook Backshifting when setting up the clutching, being in the sand I'm sure is not anywhere near as important in the woods
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Thanks for the help guys keep en coming, I need all the info I can get, I really like the idea of not shifting the more I think about it!
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An RPM is not $5K, it is like $2200 for the strongest one. Final price on a cassette drive will still end up being pretty, then add in the electric reverse... The RPM box has spur gears in it. Just a guess, but I bet it is 97%+ efficient. O-ring chains are less efficient than regular chains. Put 2 of them in a cassette for a 2 stage reduction and I would have to wonder where you would end up for efficiency. I personally would not even consider having a car that heavy without (real) reverse.
A steel helix which I said was important for use in dirt will also help back shifting. Think of the difference between pushing a cart with rubber tires on dirt compared to a steel wheeled cart on a painted and paved shop floor. Steel rollers on a steel helix roll easier than nylon on aluminum. Less friction means less torque difference required between upshift and back shift. The Super Torquer clutch is supposed to be even better for back shifting. The helix radius changes as through the rotation of the clutch. It keeps the lever ratio of - belt to helix:helix to center - the same as the clutch shifts. It accomplishes what a multi angle helix is supposed to, but better somehow.
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UH OK, I believe you.... LOL! I am way over my head here, but if you guys say it then I believe it, Maybe I should do a reverse box, but Im really only going to weigh like 1000-1200lbs with the Eco motor, so I think I could make do but why not go all the way, and it would be easier to configure too which is worth $$ as well in time...
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but why not go all the way, and it would be easier to configure too which is worth $$ as well in time...
Stick with a bus and an adapter.... $$$ and time ahead ..........
without paying for a frigging 5k trans! not to mention the size, and I hate VW trannies they shift terrible. any input?
Talk to Az Transaxle. He might be able to do better than that. Mine shifts bitchen now that he rebuilt it. No slop, precise, etc. You may have had bad experience with worn ones, but a good one is pretty nice.....
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The real problem I have with the VW assuming it shifts nice is the size and weight, I can keep my weight close to the MC engine with the clutch, if I don't do reverse, with the VW it is like 200lbs more isn't it? Not to mention I have no room for it as the engine would then have to be mounted longitudinally vs transverse for the clutch. I am just trying to basically get a MC powered car with no shifting and tons of TQ, reliability and easy power potential. Like a fast version of my Polaris RZR, it soo fun in the bowls because you never have to think about what you are doing, just mash the gas and try not to hit anyone!
Anyone know what the gear reduction of these clutches will be if any? It seems they would have some but maybe I don't understand how they work yet.
Am I wrong to be trying this? Maybe I am chasing something that is not that great, it seems nobody really likes the idea, would a car that weighs literally 1100ish with me in it not be a rocket even with a stock ECO? I have been in the X-18 and its like nearly 2X heavier than mine and it really moved pretty good and does like 100mph top end. I gotta believe this would be a killer combo, why is it nobody seems to think so?
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If I remember right I read somewhere the bus box is about 80#
Most of the CVT's ive worked with have an idle ratio of about 3.25 to 1 with larger secondaries the number will go up
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Well I at least figured out the weight of the ECO. It seems to be it is about 225lbs without the stock trans or power steering so I am sure once I get all the smog BS stripped off I can get it a little lighter so its not even 100lbs more than the bike motor, so hopefully with a little weight reduction I can get it to be about 100lbs difference even with the clutch, no reverse box though. I am liking this more and more, I think the torque will far out weigh the added weight, plus I might get to to wheelies!
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If I remember right I read somewhere the bus box is about 80#
Most of the CVT's ive worked with have an idle ratio of about 3.25 to 1 with larger secondaries the number will go up
So this is the same as the gear ratio or is that before it spins up and changes to the taller gearing?
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The real problem I have with the VW assuming it shifts nice is the size and weight, I can keep my weight close to the MC engine with the clutch, if I don't do reverse, with the VW it is like 200lbs more isn't it?
80# for the tranny with reverse that can easily handle the eco tech.
I am just trying to basically get a MC powered car with no shifting and tons of TQ, reliability and easy power potential. Like a fast version of my Polaris RZR, it soo fun in the bowls because you never have to think about what you are doing, just mash the gas and try not to hit anyone!
I see the appeal. I also know that for the most part bowling is a 2nd gear adventure for most folks most the time in most cars, my 2.0l the LS1's I run with, the class 5 turbo I run with, we are all in 2nd gear most of the time. I don't mind the trade off of occasional shift now and again for the proven set up.
I gotta believe this would be a killer combo, why is it nobody seems to think so?
I agree CVT is a proven winner in a dune car. I have never driven one, other than low pwer Rhinos, etc... but folks who have swear by them. Lots of Desert Dog Cyotoes out running around....
I am a fan of the X-18 for a couple of reasons; I just wish they would offer it in a bus box version as my choice is to row my own.....
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Well Eamon at X-18 just replied to my E-mail about buying the setup he uses in his car, I can get the whole clutch setup with the shaft bracing and clutch hub for the engine for about $1400.00 does that sound like a good deal to you guys, I figure it would be a great starter setup for me as I would not have to tune it at all to go riding the first time! He is a great guy and always willing to help it seems. Let me know what you think!
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Is that with the clutches calibrated?
I mean with all the guts? if it is that is a smokin deal in my opinion
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I agree CVT is a proven winner in a dune car. I have never driven one, other than low pwer Rhinos, etc... but folks who have swear by them. Lots of Desert Dog Cyotoes out running around....
If LS happens you can drive my 750 with a cvt and a potent 3 cyl. 2 stroke ;D
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I believe it is all set up but I will make sure!
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Well Eamon at X-18 just replied to my E-mail about buying the setup he uses in his car, I can get the whole clutch setup with the shaft bracing and clutch hub for the engine for about $1400.00 does that sound like a good deal to you guys, I figure it would be a great starter setup for me as I would not have to tune it at all to go riding the first time! He is a great guy and always willing to help it seems. Let me know what you think!
How much for just the hub? $1400 sounds kind of high. I can get you the 4-Pro Drive calibrated with a Heel Clicker setups that is adjustable later, Super Torquer Driven (calibrated) and belt for a lot less than $1400. I can get you the shaft bracing too. I am assuming he means the type that connects the clutch shafts together on the outside. That will actually help doing the setup because you can set it up with the proper center distance and use it as a jig.
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The real problem I have with the VW assuming it shifts nice is the size and weight, I can keep my weight close to the MC engine with the clutch, if I don't do reverse, with the VW it is like 200lbs more isn't it? Not to mention I have no room for it as the engine would then have to be mounted longitudinally vs transverse for the clutch. I am just trying to basically get a MC powered car with no shifting and tons of TQ, reliability and easy power potential. Like a fast version of my Polaris RZR, it soo fun in the bowls because you never have to think about what you are doing, just mash the gas and try not to hit anyone!
Anyone know what the gear reduction of these clutches will be if any? It seems they would have some but maybe I don't understand how they work yet.
Am I wrong to be trying this? Maybe I am chasing something that is not that great, it seems nobody really likes the idea, would a car that weighs literally 1100ish with me in it not be a rocket even with a stock ECO? I have been in the X-18 and its like nearly 2X heavier than mine and it really moved pretty good and does like 100mph top end. I gotta believe this would be a killer combo, why is it nobody seems to think so?
I think it would be bad ass, till you had to push it backwards, I only think your waisting your time doing it with no reverse and using a short chain jackshaft.. I have did the short chain jackshaft, and the money i blew i could have paid for at least half the rpm box, i gave up on it early, i likely could have threw enuff more at it to pay for 3/4 if not all of it...
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Ok, well I will have to think about it then Bug, as for Livewire, can you give me a total cost for it all including the coupler for the engine Calibrated?
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I think you would be better off to use the stock eco trans before anything like that...
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So if I just fabbed a little housing to hold oil in and use sealed bearings, you don't think it would hold? I think I could get it to live, and it would be very simple to build, just use the sealed type pillow blocks and silicone them to the outer plates on either side then fill er up... Maybe im too dumb for this kind of stuff and it wont work, just seems easy, the only enemy there is heat right?
You won't get pillow blocks to seal, doesn't matter how much silicone you use. I built a mixer at work to stir water into copper and insulation pieces before separating them, and the water always got past the bearings. It either went through the seals themselves or between the bearing and the casting. That was in a very abrasive environment turning at low speeds and always cool. I'd bet warm oil and high rpms would let the oil pass right through the pillow blocks.
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Well if not pillows, then I could use bearing housings from a rear end or something, I am sure I could make it happen as far as the sealing goes.
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How big is the Eco trans? could be an option if its light, but I really like the idea of the clutch. I am not saying I will not use the reverse box but I would like to try the "casette" if you will. I can always go back to the box if I need to.
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I'm trying to work out a oil filled chain case for my build, but I would consider it a low power situation. going with a power plant like the Eco, I think you would be money ahead to go with the RPM. just my opinion though.
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I figure I can get away with one chain either way as I am still not producing more power than the turbo busa guys, I will likely do a 630 chain in the case with the smallest an largest I can physically fit in the location, should still be fine, it will be a longer chain than you might think as I have an unusual design at the back of the car to make it a little longer.
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were you putting the clutches? see how close mine are, your not gonna acomplish to much more distance maybe 4"...
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi446.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq182%2Fbuggyfabber%2F039.jpg&hash=a26cc19365d979efba820989f62d5e4d99da1315)
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Well I was going by this image here, it seems to have a bit of distance, we'll see when it comes down to it. I understand what you're saying though, I think the space will be tight as it is though with headers etc.