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Author Topic: Trojans take on engineering  (Read 17397 times)

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trojan

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Trojans take on engineering
« on: April 28, 2009, 12:36:31 AM »
Doug, when you say "designed", what design criteria did you use?
How did you determine what loads are in play and their magnitudes?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 03:03:07 PM by Masterfabr »
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Offline Doug Heim

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2009, 05:43:29 AM »
OK I redesigned them off of crudly built Arms. The geometry was changed as well to what they supplied me as overall dimentions. The shop Im refering to does everything old school and fits alot of stuff like Yoshi does. They dont use CAD and turned to me to have the laser work cut. I dont have solid works or andysthing to perform any type of analayis on the part. Its probably just over built. They have never destroyed one. Ill post up some videos of this truck getting in wrecks and the Arms survived. Its quite impressive!

Look up on You tube. Johnny Greaves and Corr Racing, These are the guys. I also do work for about a half dozen other teams. Scott Douglas, Scott Taylor, and Jeff Kincade just to name a few.
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Online fabr

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2009, 06:37:08 AM »
Name dropper!  ;D ;D ;D 8)
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trojan

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2009, 07:26:19 AM »
If you are not aware of the loads and forces involved, you drew them up, not "redesigned" them. That's cool in itself, but it's not the same thing. If you don't get what I mean, Eng (or any engineer) will be able to explain the difference better than me ;)
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Online fabr

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2009, 07:47:28 AM »
What does it matter?
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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Offline Engineer

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2009, 08:19:52 AM »
Trojan is talking about the kind of "design" that they do on airplanes, where every ounce is counted, and every part stress analyzed.  Most engineering work that I have seen doesn't go that far into the details.  I worked at Great Plains, who manufacture's agriculture equipment.  They never "designed" anything according to Trojan's definition.  However they started with an idea, and ended up with complete grain drills, so somewhere along the way some design happened.  The next step was to abuse test the equipment to verify that the guesses that they made on material sizing were adequate.  If something failed, then possibly they would start investigating stress levels.  I think the truth is depending on quantity to be produced or the application (aircraft) etc, spending the time to analyze every part is a bit overkill.

Of course a main structural beam, or frame member that has basic forces on it can be calculated for sizing, but would you do it to every gusset?  What is interesting to me is that every engineer that graduates from college is trained to analyze stress, crunch numbers, use formulas, but I never saw a class that addressed how to formulate an idea, how to come up with a design, how to develop a concept.  All they teach is how to critique the ideas that have been generated.  Anyone can be trained to analyize the stress in a tube, but the creativity to start with a concept, and turn it into a design, and parts is much more impressive IMO, yet overlooked as anything special.

You have to cut Trojan some slack, he looks at the whole world working in harmony, and see's no design present.  I guess he assumes that GOD didn't stress analyze the wood in a tree trunk before he made it grow.  Thank goodness it worked out by chance!  ::)
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Offline Engineer

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2009, 08:23:25 AM »
Quote from: trojan on April 28, 2009, 07:26:19 AM
If you are not aware of the loads and forces involved, you drew them up, not "redesigned" them. That's cool in itself, but it's not the same thing. If you don't get what I mean, Eng (or any engineer) will be able to explain the difference better than me ;)

Did that help clarify?  :D
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trojan

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2009, 08:33:26 AM »
Grow that tree in the ABSCENCE of wind and you'll soon see how it adapts and how your premise is misguided to the point of being ignorant and presumptuous :-*
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Online fabr

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2009, 08:35:10 AM »
Same goes for house building. We analyze (yeah sure we do) main structural elements to meet the needs of the structure as a whole.  LOL!!! That's is NOT how the real world does it. The real world just puts a 5-600% safety factor into it to cover your ass.
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but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

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Online fabr

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2009, 08:40:55 AM »
Quote from: trojan on April 28, 2009, 08:33:26 AM
Grow that tree in the ABSCENCE of wind and you'll soon see how it adapts and how your premise is misguided to the point of being ignorant and presumptuous :-*
I'm sorry but what is wind? A gentle breeze or a tornado? I haven't seen too many trees engineered to withstand a tornado. Same thing applies to engineering anything. Without known info you CAN'T engineer a thing.WIthout building it FIRST you have NO idea what the failure point is so therefore you CAN'T engineer it. IMO engineering anything is nothing more than voodoo science that becomes REAL once tested. BTW ,just because something is engineered does not mean it will work.
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

trojan

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2009, 08:43:56 AM »
According to Grim, engineers nowdays are taught to copy and modify rather than design... *shrug*

Fab, to come up with a value of 5-600 you first need to KNOW what 100 is ;) guessing what 100 is leaves you "drawing it up" not designing it :P
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trojan

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2009, 08:49:17 AM »
Quote from: Masterfabr on April 28, 2009, 08:40:55 AM
I'm sorry but what is wind? A gentle breeze or a tornado? I haven't seen too many trees engineered to withstand a tornado. Same thing applies to engineering anything. Without known info you CAN'T engineer a thing.WIthout building it FIRST you have NO idea what the failure point is so therefore you CAN'T engineer it. IMO engineering anything is nothing more than voodoo science that becomes REAL once tested. BTW ,just because something is engineered does not mean it will work.

Any wind, breeze or otherwise. Try it and you'll know what I KNOW. While your at it get your head around the calculations it takes to actually design at the level I'm referring and then you wont think it so irrelevant... coz it's not. just because you don't understand it or don't have the capacity to understand it, but have the ability to speak, does not make your explanation or the excuses for not understanding it valid sorry.
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Online fabr

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2009, 10:41:51 AM »
Quote from: trojan on April 28, 2009, 08:43:56 AM
According to Grim, engineers nowdays are taught to copy and modify rather than design... *shrug*

Fab, to come up with a value of 5-600 you first need to KNOW what 100 is ;) guessing what 100 is leaves you "drawing it up" not designing it :P
Not in MY world.Lumber has been extensively tested to know nominal values that are used to do the engineering.It is still spec'd at 5-6 times it's design needs.So YES they do know what 5-600% of 1 is.
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"

trojan

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2009, 10:53:15 AM »
Quote from: Masterfabr on April 28, 2009, 10:41:51 AM
Not in MY world.Lumber has been extensively tested to know nominal values that are used to do the engineering.It is still spec'd at 5-6 times it's design needs.So YES they do know what 5-600% of 1 is.


Exactly, now argue how you're not being contraire ::)
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Online fabr

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Re: Cross Motorsports long travel two seater
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2009, 11:03:00 AM »
Quote from: trojan on April 28, 2009, 08:49:17 AM
Any wind, breeze or otherwise. Try it and you'll know what I KNOW. While your at it get your head around the calculations it takes to actually design at the level I'm referring and then you wont think it so irrelevant... coz it's not. just because you don't understand it or don't have the capacity to understand it, but have the ability to speak, does not make your explanation or the excuses for not understanding it valid sorry.
Oratory does not make you right. Nor does attempting to ridicule a person. There is no need for that.  IF you have something of value to add to this please do so. Insults are BS here sir.
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"There can be no divided allegiance here.  Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all.  We have room for but one
flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is
the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people."
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

-----------------------------------------------------------
 " You have all the right in the world to believe any damn thing you'd like, but you don't have the right to demand that I agree with your fantasy"
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