DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" General Discusion => Topic started by: anti bling on December 19, 2008, 09:40:33 PM
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I'm looking at designing a front motor/ auto trans/ solid rear axle/ long travel suspension. think of a prerunner truck but with out the body. to save weight i was thinking of a 300 hp turbocharged 4 cyl motor, a turbo 350 trans and a Toyota rear axle.
if weight (fuel cell/radiator/battery,etc) was mounted towards the rear and set the motor /trans rearwards to get more weight off the front wheels. 2 seats maybe 4.
should be easy to set up. built trans axles are just way out of my budget. and i bet i can build this with cheep junkyard parts
should be a fun desert/sand ride
what do you think? any pros/cons?
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Funny you said that - when you talked about the motor you had access to, i was thinking TRUGGY or TT.
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true.......i think ill be heading in that direction. now i need an auto tranny and a bigger rear end. welll it wont be a mini buggy then... oh well. great now my ADAH is kickin in. i need to go order my bendtech pro software and start designing......
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i found it!!!!! oh yea this bad boy it the sh!t !!!! LMAO!!!!
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi277.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk74%2Fantiblinghenri%2Ffunny%2Ffunnyrail.jpg&hash=6b82fb14dce1ce16e141cf9f74d67f42e8ec5b5e)
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Oh my....
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Oh shit!
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That's Awsome!! I like the suspension seat, and open drive shaft under your nuts!
For automotive power designs I have always thought these guys did a pretty good job. At least good for ideas. I don't know why they don't just suspend the whole rearend. http://www.sandrocket.com/
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That would feel great to throw a u joind and knock your dick off! :o I was thinking to doing a truggy before I started my car. It would be a fun project. I still want to build one someday.
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There was a serious build on that other site... That looked just like that oneand the guy was proud of it and was going to go into production :-X
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So I never really looked at the Sand Rocket before - Are they using a standard rear end with CV's at the output then IRS? If so, I mean heck, this seems like a real inexpensive / super durable way to get full IRS decent travel and big HP with out the Mendeola or Albins cost.
So, what is the downside? Somebody school me.
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They generally use corvette or a German (audi/benz/etc I don't remember) third member that is setup for IRS. It isn't real narrow so not condusive to real long travel. Front engine is not helpful for making 4 seats if your into that. They claim that they fly well, but I am not sure how well the weight distribution works out. (You will notice that the engine is set back quite a ways to help out) They do quite a bit of work to heat shield the exhaust from the occupants. A problem you dont have in rear engine.
Then you have the weight issue of V-8 power. In the sand weight matters, because your not direct drive. More like weight displacement drive. And with this design the motor is not setting on the rear wheels to help out. They claim you can't beat the V-8 torque, and claim them to be extremely fast. I am sure the seat of the pants meter says they are fast, especially coupled with the V-8 rumble. But when you add in the weight disadvantage, you probably need 600+ hp to run with a 300 Hp subaru or MC powered buggy. That equals lotsa race gas!
I would love to hear a review from someone non-biased. This is just my $.02 from looking into them.
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I figured if they were the way to go, there would be more of them ....? I like the weight displacement drive concept - helps to explain why in sand somethings work better than others?
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Weight displacement..... Just like a jet boat. ;D
From there website pics, they have built a pile of them. I can't believe someone here hasn't seen one run. I have seen some front engine V-8's at the dunes, but they were all much more "jethro" than the sand bullets. ;D
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Me and my dad are about to start our builds like this in a couple months. Were using a Small block chevy with a 700R4 and a 12 bolt or a ford 9" rear end, were going to be buillding 2 of them. Ive been looking at this for insperation,
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jumplive.com%2Fblogger%2Fpano_terribleherbst.jpg&hash=b90fdaf94f2a06906b407af5528ab2045e74083f)
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Sand rocket uses a jaguar rear end.
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I sure would like to see one in person. Seems like a cost effective way to have a 500+ hp machine. The big bugga boo is the Spendeola or Albins.
I agree, all the "pumpers" I have seen before are in fact "jethro." These units look pretty cool as a two seater - Who needs groupies?
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For automotive power designs I have always thought these guys did a pretty good job. At least good for ideas. I don't know why they don't just suspend the whole rearend. http://www.sandrocket.com/
With an IRS rear end like the Sand Rockets do the chassis holds all the torque and the machines do not "torque over". With a straight axle the rear suspension has to deal with the torque and the whole chassis can be seen to "lean over" under power. Like the old Monster trucks used to do when they left leaf springs and went to long travel but still had bugs to work out. Thats just one I remember as being "easy" to see but any straight axle does it to some degree if its got a ring and pinion in it. Heck you can even see it in TT trucks when they take off hard from the stops.
Drag cars can tune this out some (Ask Fabr!) But on a long travel with a soft suspension? Pretty tough to do and keep the smooth long travel free. So they go with IRS. Plus many feel the IRS is superior and looks cooler (I agree in some cases it does/is. But its not a given.)
I feel if you could keep a weight bias similiar to a top end race truck then it should do fine. Ever see Robby Gordon jumping at Glamis?? I know thats a $400,000.00 truck but face it You could make a machine that will perform well at a far less cost. Get the balance right and the suspension up and you might not be able to fly 1/3rd or 1/4th that far but still make good jumps and have fun.
Weight does kill you and I would see no reason a motor bike motor with a dwarf driveshaft adaptor could not be used for a super simple VERY reliable drivetrain. (Add a bit for reverse as usual) Or even a Snow mobile motor up there with a driveshaft off it if you did not wish to shift. This may cost a lil more than a car engine but would save a lil weight so I guess its what you get a deal on for power.
For that matter Either in the front end of a mini TT truck or setting it in the back end of a buggy for pure sand I have always thought a good front drive motor and tranny flipped sideways with the diff locked and run a driveshaft out to a IRS rearend.
Your typical front drive motor if turned to the left (as in turning a left corner in its orientation in comparison to how it sits in the car normally) then has a spinning shaft that rotates the proper way to spin a common read IRS or staight axle. All you would need to do is have a driveshaft fitted. Quite cheap compared to many things one could do. No shifting (if auto if thats your pref) and if you use good parts you know they are tough. This is what I would call the most cost effective and light weight. Maybe not as pretty as a Medeola but hey I would prefer this over spending that kinda dough on a tranny I have seen still have issues at times.
The front drive car setup on a MINI TT truck would make for a better center of gravity (front to rear) and a much shorter drivetrain vehicle if that was a desire. You could offset the motor a tad as the length of the drivesahft would not care if it was a touch off to one side.
The gear reduction in the IRS or rear axle would allow you to run bigger tires than the Front drive car could and I see this as a plus as many things I see home-made seem undertired to me and spin to much.
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How about this !!!!!
Trophykart Elite KX250F powered
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How about this !!!!!
Trophykart Elite KX250F powered
bit to small, need something Cvt and ecotech powered, that can handle the whoops at about 100 MPH... ;D Dont get me wrong, tk kart be fun as hell, but if building, certainly need more power... ;D
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For that matter Either in the front end of a mini TT truck or setting it in the back end of a buggy for pure sand I have always thought a good front drive motor and tranny flipped sideways with the diff locked and run a driveshaft out to a IRS rearend.
Your typical front drive motor if turned to the left (as in turning a left corner in its orientation in comparison to how it sits in the car normally) then has a spinning shaft that rotates the proper way to spin a common read IRS or staight axle. All you would need to do is have a driveshaft fitted. Quite cheap compared to many things one could do. No shifting (if auto if thats your pref) and if you use good parts you know they are tough. This is what I would call the most cost effective and light weight. Maybe not as pretty as a Medeola but hey I would prefer this over spending that kinda dough on a tranny I have seen still have issues at times.
The gear reduction in the IRS or rear axle would allow you to run bigger tires than the Front drive car could and I see this as a plus as many things I see home-made seem undertired to me and spin to much.
check this out. it's got a honda zc powerplant turned sideways.
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I have seen those in Person Boostinjdm.
At first they seem really neat. But they are really mostly a joke.
When they first came out the guy wanted $17,000 for them and they were gonna be the biggest thing to hit stadiums EVER.
Problem is there performance is mediocre at best. NO one is gonna wanna watch a dozen of these bob around the track for long. They simply are not that fast. The $17,000 price tag is a joke too.
Not enough people can afford a nice $8000 to $9000 Honda racing pilot to fill out a race series many times. These Pilots will go fast and make HUGE jumps and woooooo the crowd.
These mini 4x4 trucks are more money and not as much fun to watch. So whooooopeeeeeeee. Trust me if you watch them a lil you would rather watch a fast buggy race.
Other than maybe deep mud and a few other choice terrains a fast two wheel drive buggy will leave them in the dust without effort at a fraction of the cost. With a much better ride. But I have seen some two wheel drive buggies do awesome in the mud if they had some snot.
The guy trying to get the race series setup said NO OTHERS but his would be allowed (forcing you to buy his overpriced machine) and NO modifications were allowed. So it all boiled down to who would beat on their $17,000 machine the hardest would win the competion IF it did not break and prevent them from finishing.
Just my feelings on THOSE particuler little trucks. I have noticed they never really took off but the Trophy Karts which are cheaper and faster seem to be doing quite well.
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How about this !!!!!
Trophykart Elite KX250F powered
New guy,
your in the wrong section...This is the AUTOMOTIVE POWERED section
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I started drawing up a 2 seater with a 4.6 cobra motor with a single turbo (450-500hp) and a ford 5 speed run back to a ford 9". I was going to run a 3 link rear and an a-arm front. Very similar to that terrible pic just not as pricey. I just could not fit it in my toyhauler so I abandoned the idea. I still would love to do it someday. You can get a good 25 inches in the rear with a v-8 and it would cost half of what a standard style buggy (irs and v-8) would cost. My entire drivetrain with motor, trans, rear end and suspension was going to be about $8000. You would put that in just an irs trans.
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There are a few guys who run the Silver lake Sand Dunes with V8 sand rails that are true custom jobs. The motor does sit a bit higher as its right over an IRS rear end and some of them use a HUGE wide belt on pullies to drop the power down from the tranny. Others use chains in enclosed cases and one of them uses a 4x4 tranny and transfercase that feeds power to a front axle out of a chevy IFS truck.
These are not the word for low center of gravity but they go like hell over the dunes. They are all pretty wide to regain some stability. Big foru seater and the like.
Then of course you have a few with the Toranado transaxle. Much lower motor but still a bit heavy.
A stout V8 with a shorty Powerglide feeding a strong IRS rear end is to me the cheapest way to a fast rail with reasonable components with a car motor. Will get to 80 easy even with two gears and faster with the right parts (built motor) and it keeps the weight close the the tail end.
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Me and my dad are about to start our builds like this in a couple months. Were using a Small block chevy with a 700R4 and a 12 bolt or a ford 9" rear end, were going to be buillding 2 of them. Ive been looking at this for insperation,
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jumplive.com%2Fblogger%2Fpano_terribleherbst.jpg&hash=b90fdaf94f2a06906b407af5528ab2045e74083f)
Are you SURE you want to use a 700 R4? I've killed at least 10 of them in my Suburban.
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I put that pic up just to demonstrate your suggestion to turn the engine sideways and use the axles as driveshafts to run a diff. Not to promote that particular vehicle. I do think it would be cool though just for playing around on weekends, not racing. I won't spend that kind of money on a toy though. Hell, I won't spend that kind of money on my primary transportation.
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Ahh I gotcha Boost. I figured it was that or similiar. I too think they are neat but before I would spend that kinda loot I would build a better one out of a Ford Bronco frame (older cracker box style) with some hotrod setup out of a newer car and make it a two or four seater for dune fun.
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Yeah, I guess dunes don't excite me much. I can't believe how much power you guys are talking about. If I want to go fast I stick to paved surfaces, for fun I like dodgeing trees and running in circles on dirt. But I guess that's cuz I grew up racing with a 5hp briggs and my parents wouldn't get me an atv. All my thoughts revolve around those situations.
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You ought to try the dunes sometime. Nothing quite like it. It's a sweet sand-sation!
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maybe someday, but I think I'll pass for now. I don't think my wallet could handle it.
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always and still think about building one of these just for fun! I had a built 350 s/b but traded it for a quad. I still have a 454 b/b that needs rebuilt, might just find it's way into one of these some day.
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Holy Smokes that thing is big! That would be an open trailer special.
It looks like a good way to use automotive power.
I especially like the non-muffled exhaust, with tractor rain flap. :P Don't you SPEC! ::) Mmmmm.... Tractor parts.
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GODDAMN Engineer,
I like you more everyday ;D
Tractor...tractor tractor parts ;D
You musta heard from a little birdie that I do alot of my work with modified lawn mowers :o
And yeah that is a cool ass machine even with out the rain caps
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Not a fan of the solid axle, but boy I am liking more and more the "sand rocket" idea....
Big power with components designed for big power.....
No sense in following the heard.
Just want to see / ride in one.
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The sandrockets are cool. I have seen many in person at Glamis but never got a ride in one.
I have seen them with small block chevys and big blocks. I have seen one with that old aluminum V-8 I think Buick made? I have also seen one with a turbo v-6 out of a Grand national Buick and that thing rocked. The weight savings seemed VERY apparent.
They make (or at least made) them in two and four seaters.
I see no reason that a person could not make one out of ANY powerful motor (i.e. four banger turbo, Honda T-tech) etc. For an reliable machine that won't break the bank to build.
The only thing I did not like about the Sand Rockets is they have the motor front and radiator rear (That parts OK.) But they actually flowed the coolant THRU the frame tubes to get it back and forth. I prefer NOT to run something through stressed members of frame that WILL corrode the tubes to some degree and eventually badley. Just me maybe but I would make separate tubes for this purpose.