DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
The Machine Shop => Tools/Tips and Tricks => Topic started by: Boostinjdm on February 15, 2011, 06:41:51 PM
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So there is a guy near me with a mill and lathe for sale....
Jet Jtm-1 w/DRO and powered table. (9x42 step pulley Mill)
Jet GH-1340w-3 (it's a geared head engine lathe)
Both come with tool cabinets with collets, boring bars, extra chucks, cutters, carbide inserts, reamers, etc. Not lot's of tooling, but enough to cover me for awhile.
So the guy bought up all the equipment when the place he worked for relocated. This is the stuff he has left. He had to pay for this stuff up front and has been sitting on it for 6 months. This stuff is all 3 phase and I realize I'm going to spend about $800 on a converter to run it.
Anyways, one of my customers offered to pre-pay me for work (loan) me the money if I wanted this equipment. He already owes me some money and will owe more before the week's over. Without this, I do not have enough to buy the equipment. He knows this equipment will eventually save him money because I can do more of the work myself and do it faster.
I went and eyeballed the equipment today and personally wrote down model/stock/serial #'s so I could properly put a value on it. It appears that everything he has is worth roughly $20k new. Everything was purchased in 2003 and taken out of service in 2009 for the mill and 2010 for the lathe. Both pieces of equipment were dirty (oily with chips still on them). I wiped them off in spots to inspect. They did not appear to have excess slack or much wear from use. Machining was not the main part of this business. It was for making fixtures to produce their product.
The guy was asking $8500 for everything when I got there. By the time we were done, he was down to $7500 for everything. With racing season coming and this guy needing his garage back, I asked him what it would be worth if I could give him cash and have the stuff gone this weekend. He said "throw out a number". I refrained. I am not going the throw out a final number till I have cash in my hand to complete the deal. It did lead me to believe he would come down more if cash was waved in front of him. I am going to talk to the money guy tomorrow morning to settle on terms of the loan.
Any thoughts? Is he too high on price or does it sound like a fair deal? If it makes a difference, I have enough cash to cover half the loan right now and a few things I could sell quickly to cover the rest if need be.
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I wish I could offer an opinion to help out.
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I wish I could offer an opinion to help out.
What? IF anything, you've always got an opinion....
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I know nothing about these two machines...But to me the price sounds high for a step pulley mill.
Its better to have it covered in oil than rust.
You wont need $800 to get 3 phase,3HP variable frequency drives are in the 180$ range.
http://dealerselectric.com/variable_frequency_drives.asp (http://dealerselectric.com/variable_frequency_drives.asp)
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you'll be disappointed.
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i meant with those static converters. still no opinion on the machines.
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I have not even considered the static converters. The literature on the mill says specifically that the warranty (which has expired anyway) would be void if a static converter was used. I was looking at USA made rotary converters with lifetime warranties or maybe a VFD. The thing is....the rotary will run everything and then some.
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I know nothing about these two machines...But to me the price sounds high for a step pulley mill.
New price on the mill with DRO and maybe powered feed looks to be in the $8k+ range. That is for Jet stuff. Other brands are cheaper, but these aren't other brands. I'm trying to compare apples to apples here.
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Sounds like a good deal then.
Also modern VFDs are NOT the same as the old static drives everyone is used to.Go to one of the big machinist sites and search,they work just fine.
BTW,I have the old phase-o-matic static on my proto-trak and have never had a problem,plenty of hp to cut what I need to cut.
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The phase-a -matic I had were junk. The VFD's are not bad but a full digital is best. http://www.phaseperfect.com/
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Static converters are not VFD's. I've spent several hours reading and will say that a properly sized VFD is prolly the best option, but as I understand it, needs to be tied to one piece of equipment. A rotary will handle several pieces of equipment either individually or at the same time. That is what is pointing me in that direction. And what makes a rotary best for me. One big rotary is cheaper than two or more properly setup VFDs. I'm thinking that in the future I may stumple upon other 3 phase equipment I want to run like a bandsaw or grinder or even to test a farmers conveyor I have to repair. I believe a rotary converter will best suit my situation.
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I've got to discuss terms with the money man tomorrow morning, but I'm thinking of waving $6K in front of the guy and telling him I'll have the equipment out of there before the weekend. We'll see what happens, but my sources tell me he didn't give much for the whole shop full of equipment and he has a new racecar he needs the space and money to assemble. ;D
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You wont need $800 to get 3 phase,3HP variable frequency drives are in the 180$ range.
http://dealerselectric.com/variable_frequency_drives.asp (http://dealerselectric.com/variable_frequency_drives.asp)
Maybe I wasn't understanding what I was reading, but I seem to remember something about needing to be closed loop for lathes. Or sensorless? And needing to be over sized for hard start applications (I believe a lathe is medium to hard). Maybe somebody with actual VFD experience could chime in. I could call a sales rep, but I don't see the point without actually having a need for it. If/when I have the equipment I may pick up the phone.
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Yup,VFDs one tool at a time.Sounds like you already have all the answers you need?Buy a rotary,and the machines.
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Static converters are not VFD's. I've spent several hours reading and will say that a properly sized VFD is prolly the best option, but as I understand it, needs to be tied to one piece of equipment. A rotary will handle several pieces of equipment either individually or at the same time. That is what is pointing me in that direction. And what makes a rotary best for me. One big rotary is cheaper than two or more properly setup VFDs. I'm thinking that in the future I may stumple upon other 3 phase equipment I want to run like a bandsaw or grinder or even to test a farmers conveyor I have to repair. I believe a rotary converter will best suit my situation.
Just be sure that you understand that a 5 hp rotary will not run a 5 hp motor. You need to oversize it.
The BEST alternative is a PhasePerfect unit. Second best and most often done is a rotary. Don't confuse a PhasePerfect with a static POS tho.
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Seems high to me for the equipment. Especially in this market. Look at what equipment is going for on auction sites. You will be suprised! :o
I ran my entire garage with a 10hp rotary for about 5 years. Get a quiet one! Mine cost $600 about 6 years ago brand new. You can finde deals on those as well! FYI I bought my CNC proto trak for about $6000 all said and done. My CNC lathe fully tooled I just recently bought for $12000 and the guy shipped it from CA for free. This is all high end CNC shit in very good condition!
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Yup,I paid $3k for my two axis prototrak in primo condition!
At least with the VFD you would be able to change spindle rpm without d!@#ing around with the belts on the mill.
I was looking at a large clausing lathe where the guy removed all the old electronics and replaced with a VFD and it worked great.
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Seems high to me for the equipment. Especially in this market. Look at what equipment is going for on auction sites. You will be suprised! :o
I'll agree that there may be better deals out there, but this is the best I have found that I can see and deal on in person. There just doesn't seem to be that much equipment around here up for grabs unless you know somebody and apparently I don't.
Just to be clear. When I left we were at $7500 for both the mill and the lathe and the benches/cabinets and the tooling. That's less than one bare machine new. It's also better equipment than what I was considering buying new. The guy seemed open to a lower offer if the cash was in front of him.
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Well....we arrived at $7250 and he is paying for the forklift rental and will have it at his place ready to go. Will be picking up fri or sat depending on when the forklift will be available.May not be the best deal in the world, but I think it is reasonable and a lot of the tooling was still in the boxes or barely used (looked new). I spotted a few more items worth a few hundred bux each. It's going to take me two trips to get the stuff home. I figure I'll give him half when the lathe and tooling hits my trailer and the rest when the mill hits the trailer. Seems only fair to me anyways.
On a side note...I had a hell of a time sleeping last night. I can't imagine it's going to get any better till the equipment is up and running and/or the debt is paid.
Any tips on strapping this stuff down and transporting? The mill is what concerns me the most.
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I cant say for the tooling but Im sure that alone makes it a good deal as tooling can sure add up!
For strapping down, I use a chain and binder on the mill base and a heavy strap over the top...
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi39.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe162%2FWH1TETIGER%2FMachinery%2520and%2520Tools%2FIMG_1090.jpg&hash=b5e1e2fa4eb9221b648d928de6f6e29d86a02392)
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi39.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe162%2FWH1TETIGER%2FMachinery%2520and%2520Tools%2FIMG_1091.jpg&hash=f40ba944df6595257e65ef823d1a3261956479bd)
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Do you run the knee down tight on a block or just lock it? I see a strap over the knee. Anything way up at the top of the column? I am assuming I need to lock the x, y, and quill. Correct? They are both sitting on heavy duty pallets. Are those ok for transport? Dunnage would be better, but the pallets are sturdy and I can drive as slow and easy as I need to. The pallets will definately make loading and unloading easier.
Things I spotted today were a dividing head, two jacobs keyless chucks on arbors that appeared unused, and a few more tool holders and endmills. I won't know exactly what I have untill I get it home. Since we agreed on a price, I tried to give the guy some of the money so I could bring the tooling home tonight. He insisted I pick it up all together. Kinda makes me a little leary. I told him just to leave it as is and I will box it up myself and I tried to at least make a mental note of the more expensive items that were there.
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Here is a pic of a new mill like this one with the Accu-rite DRO and x powerfeed for those that don't want to look it up.
http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/75/73/71/757371354_640.jpg (http://i.pgcdn.com/pi/75/73/71/757371354_640.jpg)
And the lathe.
http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/zoom_images/142276.jpg (http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/zoom_images/142276.jpg)
I was going to take some pics while I was there, but couldn't get a good angle in the guys garage.
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Personally I think you did fine.
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Personally I think you did fine.
I think so too. ;D Not "great", but "fine" or "OK". I think I got the stuff at or just below fair price. Not at a deal of a lifetime price like some of you fookers. kick
Anyways, the deal isn't official till the stuff is in my possession. Until then, I'm keeping a tight grip on my cash cuz it's....well....cash. Once you hand it over, you can't take it back like a check or credit card.
Recently I did get one of those deals of a lifetime though. I'll have to start a thread.....
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Any preferences on mounting feet/machine mounts? I'd rather not bolt them down. I've set a side an area of concrete with no cracks, but it is hand troweled so some shimming will be involved.
Doug, how many amps did that 10hp draw. Trying to figure out where I'm going to plug in at. I've got welding outlets good for 50 amps or a line run over to that area already good for 30.
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Your equip will have electric info on the motors.
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and epoxy anchors.
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Your equip will have electric info on the motors.
I know the mill and lathe will have info on the tag, but am confused about how that is compared to the input requirements of the RPC. I keep finding conflicting info from other sources.
Example: The lathe may require 30 amps @ 230v 3ph, but the RPC will require 40 amps input @ 230v 1ph to produce it.
I know there will be some losses due to efficiency, but is that it? I keep reading and getting more confused. I plan on calling phase converter manufacturers directly tomorrow after I get the equip home. Would just like a little heads up first. Fork lift is lined up for noon or so.
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Drop the knee all the way down and lock it, no need to block it. I usually flip the heads over as it lowers the overall height and CG a lot. Strapping like the picture Doug posted.
Installing.... Set it on the floor and shim it level and so it doesn't rock. The get some good caulking and caulk the base to the floor to keep all the crap out from underneath it.
Lathe, get a good level and check the bed end for end when your leveling it. If you have a beam style torque wrench you should be able to see similar torque readings to turn all the leveling screws when you get it level. This will ensure equal loading on the feet and a non flexing frame............
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I know the mill and lathe will have info on the tag, but am confused about how that is compared to the input requirements of the RPC. I keep finding conflicting info from other sources.
Example: The lathe may require 30 amps @ 230v 3ph, but the RPC will require 40 amps input @ 230v 1ph to produce it.
I know there will be some losses due to efficiency, but is that it? I keep reading and getting more confused. I plan on calling phase converter manufacturers directly tomorrow after I get the equip home. Would just like a little heads up first. Fork lift is lined up for noon or so.
You must use the info on the RPC motor then. Most honest RPC makers will tell you you need approx 150% more RPC hp than your machine. In other words if your machine is 5 hp then you need a 7.5 hp rpc. On a true digital such as PhasePerfect you need not oversize. The PhasePerfect units are unfortunately the most expensive option. A rpc will serve you well tho.
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The PhasePerfect units are unfortunately the most expensive option.
Yeah tell me about it. I looked them up. Can I borrow your checkbook?
Got the stuff home today. As soon as I figure out where to start cleaning and get them clean, I'll post pics. I found rigging instructions in the manual to get the lathe off the pallet, but where in the hell to I lift the mill? When we got the the Bridgeport at work, we lifted it by the head. Well, not the head, but real close to the column and trammed the head out to balance it. I'm not sure I like doing that to my stuff. Is there a better way?
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Flip the head like was mentioned,one fork on either side of the column,from the side, under the ram dovetail.I put 2x4 blocks on the forks to protect the dovetail,one on the front and two on the back,the front will flex more because of the added weight of the head, causing more room on the back.I think this is the safest way personally,the weight is low and you pick it up high.
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Found it. Manual said to sling the dovetail ahead and behind the column. Should have looked there first I guess.
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Just downloaded the manual for the DRO on the mill. This thing is fooken awsome! Figures round bolt patterns and everything. That seems way to easy to me. Maybe I'm a little behind on modern equipment capabilities. Never got to use a good (read not cobbled together home made) boring bar either. Now I've got five of 'em. ;D No vise for the mill though. bs1
The cleaning is going kinda slow. These things will never look new again, but should work just fine. Adjusting and getting familiar with things as I go. I think I need to set up a 3 ring binder with laminated manuals for reference. Maybe two of them. One to use and one for a backup.
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Yeah tell me about it. I looked them up. Can I borrow your checkbook?
Got the stuff home today. As soon as I figure out where to start cleaning and get them clean, I'll post pics. I found rigging instructions in the manual to get the lathe off the pallet, but where in the hell to I lift the mill? When we got the the Bridgeport at work, we lifted it by the head. Well, not the head, but real close to the column and trammed the head out to balance it. I'm not sure I like doing that to my stuff. Is there a better way?
Only reason I spent the coin was due to the near perfect leg to leg voltages. On all the cnc sites I was frequenting most electronics issues are caused by too much leg to leg variances. The PP units are +- 1% compared to around +-5% for rotaries.
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Speaking of leg variances, the rotaries we have at the one shop put out around 120 from 2 of the legs to ground and the third is up around 245. Going leg to leg all have the same reading though. I hate those fricking things and can't wait till we move to a building with real power like the other shop.
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Speaking of leg variances, the rotaries we have at the one shop put out around 120 from 2 of the legs to ground and the third is up around 245. Going leg to leg all have the same reading though. I hate those fricking things and can't wait till we move to a building with real power like the other shop.
That can be a real issue . I know I spent twice plus to get the PP unit but I feel it's a good investment since I can run true balanced 3 phase with it and I can run motors at full HP without oversizing the converter.
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BTW,the PP units consume a lot less energy also.
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Talked to Jay at American Rotary today. He's pretty much got me talked into the 7.5hp digitally controlled converter with soft start. He says it should run off my 30 amp circuit and will have enough oomph to run my equipment. $700 shipped. He says they are quiet enough to sit on and talk on the phone (I'm not sure about that). What do ya think? Jump on it?
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Only reason I spent the coin was due to the near perfect leg to leg voltages. On all the cnc sites I was frequenting most electronics issues are caused by too much leg to leg variances. The PP units are +- 1% compared to around +-5% for rotaries.
For your equipment, I would have spent the money too. You're in a whole nother budget ballpark though.
Jay says the RPC has to be so much bigger for the inrush, but when running should be drawing anywhere from 15-25 amps. Website says at idle it will only cost 2 cent's an hour to leave running. That was figured at a higher rate than what I pay. I can live with that.
Now if I could just get these things positioned...... First place I set the mill took up too much space. I think that thing is going in the corner.
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For your equipment, I would have spent the money too. You're in a whole nother budget ballpark though.
Jay says the RPC has to be so much bigger for the inrush, but when running should be drawing anywhere from 15-25 amps. Website says at idle it will only cost 2 cent's an hour to leave running. That was figured at a higher rate than what I pay. I can live with that.
Now if I could just get these things positioned...... First place I set the mill took up too much space. I think that thing is going in the corner.
yupDon't put it tooo deep in the corner. You want to be able to fixture a part that might overhang the table a few feet even . I have my bridgeport about 30 inches from the corner to the rear of the machine base. Still a bit too close at times.
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GOOD ADVISE!!!
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Forklift ran out of fuel so I had to rig up a grill tank. Mill is set deep in the corner because of where my doorway is. Stuff can hang off the table and through the doorway. Like if I need a keyway on a long shaft. Choices were limited due to cracks in the floor and overall usability of the space. I think I've got it figured out for now. The mill is on the floor, but not leveled or bolted down so things can be changed.
I haven't cleaned the mill yet, but I'll go take a pic.
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Here's pics. Lathe will be roughly between the barrel and the heater. Workbench under the window. The heater will be comming out because one half died and I will use that circuit to run the RPC. I know the mud needs finished. Been like that since shortly after I moved in. Someday I'll get to it. drowning
I had more pics, but I can't seem to center shit in the frame with this camera. Prolly operator error....
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Lathe took up more space than I thought. Bench won't fit under the window so I may cheat the lathe over about 3ft and put the cabinet in the corner. I got the lathe clean enough to use, but may polish 'er up a little more. Coolant makes a hell of a mess. I just leveled the lathe with a decent torpedo level. I will have to buy or borrow a machinest level for the final setup.
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Nice lathe,wait until you get used to using the foot brake ,then go use one that doesnt have it!Its hilarious.
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Lathe took up more space than I thought. Bench won't fit under the window so I may cheat the lathe over about 3ft and put the cabinet in the corner. I got the lathe clean enough to use, but may polish 'er up a little more. Coolant makes a hell of a mess. I just leveled the lathe with a decent torpedo level. I will have to buy or borrow a machinest level for the final setup.
Boost
You have the lathe to close to the wall on the head stock end. First time you get your self a nice piece of three foot material round stock and want to cut some small part's from it you will have to saw it into before you put it in the chuck. Not good. You'll kick your self in the ass.
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Agreed! move it 3' to the right!
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Move it as far right as you can. Fast is sooooooo right .
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If moving the lathe is not an option "maybe" you could put a little window or portal in the wall you could open for longer things to fit thru depending on whats right on the other side of it AND if it would be able to be safe for others (i.e. no kids near the spinning end while you concentrate on the lathe part of it while in use.)
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I agree. As it sits there is about 15" to the wall. When I pull the heater, I will move it right about 3'. That puts me 6" shy of the crack in the floor, gives me room for the bench, plus the the original 15" to open the door and get to the motor. I've got enough room behind it now to get to the rear mounts and motor tensioner. I haven't pulled the cover yet to see how big the coolant tank is. Might not be able to get it out once the lathe is mounted. Looks like the buggy will have to come out. I'm running out of room back there.
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I agree. As it sits there is about 15" to the wall. When I pull the heater, I will move it right about 3'. That puts me 6" shy of the crack in the floor, gives me room for the bench, plus the the original 15" to open the door and get to the motor. I've got enough room behind it now to get to the rear mounts and motor tensioner. I haven't pulled the cover yet to see how big the coolant tank is. Might not be able to get it out once the lathe is mounted. Looks like the buggy will have to come out. I'm running out of room back there.
Boost
Why not turn the lathe around so when your working it your back is to the wall. Just leave enough room for a shelf on the wall and a nice size table next to you for your parts and tools. That way all the excess doors and coolent tank are open for service and the head stock is clear for any length bar stock you want to put in it. You can hang tooling on the wall behind you and all is good.
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Fast,
That would severely limit access to that room. From the doorway to the back wall is about 12'. Room is approx 22' long. I'm hoping to get my drill press, big press, tool box and a few more work benches in that room yet in addition to my paint fridge and existing work bench. The idea is to get the stuff I want to stay clean away from the rest of the garage where I do the grinding, welding, painting, and plas cutting. I push my welders back there for storage too. That room is also insulated so I can control the temp better. Try and keep condensation on the equipment to a minimum. I may also have to park the forklift in there from time to time so a trailer will fit in the big part of the garage. I'm going to be doing more cleaning/re-arranging today. I'll try to get pics of the progress.
Does anybody know if UPS/Fedex is running tomorrow. IF not, I've got another day to put off ordering my RPC. I should just bite the bullet and do it, but I was hoping to at least make it through the weekend without dropping another pile of cash. thumb down
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Just got off the phone with Jay again. 7.5hp Digital Control W/starter RPC is on the way.
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22' huh?
My garage (where I started) was only 20' X 22'
I had a...
- 4X7 weld table (1000#)
- 18" Monarch Engine Lathe (6000#)
- 10 X 54 knee mill ($3000#)
- old Kearney Horiz. Mill (5000#)
- 10 X 54 ProtoTrak CNC mill (4000#)
on top of that I had a cart with a buggy project on it at any time, My Craftsman tool box, house furnace (to heat the garage), tooling grinder, air compressor (5 HP upright), Lincon wire welder, and my phase converter.
Seems to me you have plenty of room as I still parked my personal buggy and my Busa in there at the end of the day. Now I have 1500 Sq, feet and still no room.
YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ENOUGH ROOM!
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Biggest problem I've got concerning the equipment is the condition of the concrete. Lot's of cracks and the east side is going down hill. I've got the mill and lathe set on the best chunk I've got.
IF I end up staying here then I've got a 2000 sq ft building available. No concrete, no insulation, no power. A blank slate. Staying here isn't the best move financially though. The plan is still to move. The garage up there is roughly 1500 sq feet of pretty new concrete. Good for machining and wrenching, but it's attached so no good for welding. Running a business out of it would be sketchy too being residential. Don't know exactly what the future holds yet.
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Ya, you will want to keep an eye on the level and make sure you don't fixture anything up using a level if it's critical. You'll need to indicate everything in each time you load the vice/table.
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Ya, you will want to keep an eye on the level and make sure you don't fixture anything up using a level if it's critical. You'll need to indicate everything in each time you load the vice/table.
I plan on indicating everything.
shuffled some stuff around and here is what I've kinda figured for bench/cabinet placement. I could swap them or trim the long one down a foot and turn it 90 degrees. That would still give me room to open the belt/change gear door on the lathe. It would feel more natural to me too. The lathe is directly below a four foot, for bulb florescent and lit better than anything I've worked on so far. I'm thinking of ditching the carriage light or at least re-locating it to the back splash so it's still close if I do need it. I played around with the coolant tank and found just how close to the wall I can put the lathe and still get it in/out.
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I plan on indicating everything.
shuffled some stuff around and here is what I've kinda figured for bench/cabinet placement. I could swap them or trim the long one down a foot and turn it 90 degrees. That would still give me room to open the belt/change gear door on the lathe. It would feel more natural to me too. The lathe is directly below a four foot, for bulb florescent and lit better than anything I've worked on so far. I'm thinking of ditching the carriage light or at least re-locating it to the back splash so it's still close if I do need it. I played around with the coolant tank and found just how close to the wall I can put the lathe and still get it in/out.
There will be so many times you will wish that was not the case..................
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There will be so many times you will wish that was not the case..................
You might, but I doubt I will have a problem. Never had to use a level yet. Everything I have done and seen done was measured off the table or the spindle or both depending on how you look at it.
Back to my organizing problems..... I will have to either cut down the long bench or swap it for the shorter cabinet. My circuit did not have heavy enough wire so I will be running a new one. It was wired with 12 awg on a 20 amp breaker rather than the 10 awg on a 30 that I thought. Easiest place to do that is right behind the mill. I cheated the mill another 10" towards the bench so the RPC could sit in the corner and be accessible. Now the handle hits the bench.
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where do I find one of these oilers? What's the full name of it so I can google better? I saw one in action today and now I gotta have one.
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bijur?
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bijur?
???
I understand now..... I checked through their site and couldn't find one. Lot's of automatic and centralized stuff though. This one is a handheld for the ball oilers. The machinist I talked to didn't know where he got it, but did order it from somewhere new. So they should still be available. It's not an antique or anything.
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It was just a guess at best . Sorry it wasn't right.
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Finally got some power hooked up and ran the machines. I'm fairly familiar with them now as far as what lever does what. I actually made some cuts with the lathe. This thing is sweet compared to the last two I've had to use. Taking .125" off the diameter in one pass didn't bother it a bit. That would have been about 6 passes on the lathe I've been using...
Ok.....so what do you guys use for oilers? I still haven't located a source for the one in the pic.
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What do you guys use for coolant? Doug, Adam, Fabr, anybody else.
I'm lookin for low/no maintenance and no shit growin in the tank. So far it looks like Mobilemet 404 cutting oil is a good candidate. Thoughts?
http://thelubricantstore.com/customer/thlust/customerpages/specpages/mobilmet-404.html (http://thelubricantstore.com/customer/thlust/customerpages/specpages/mobilmet-404.html)
I'm also looking for a few things. Rotary table, mill vise, 3MT live center. The live center is needed most with the vise coming in a close second. The rotary table is more of a want than a need. Just looking for stuff that works for now if any of you have extras you want to sell. I'll upgrade later on. I'm damn near out of money now.
OH, Jay at American Rotary wasn't exaggerating when he said you could sit on the converter and carry on a phone conversation. It's actually that quiet. My electric and LP heaters are louder than the converter.
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What do you guys use for coolant? Doug, Adam, Fabr, anybody else.
I'm lookin for low/no maintenance and no shit growin in the tank. So far it looks like Mobilemet 404 cutting oil is a good candidate. Thoughts?
http://thelubricantstore.com/customer/thlust/customerpages/specpages/mobilmet-404.html (http://thelubricantstore.com/customer/thlust/customerpages/specpages/mobilmet-404.html)
I'm also looking for a few things. Rotary table, mill vise, 3MT live center. The live center is needed most with the vise coming in a close second. The rotary table is more of a want than a need. Just looking for stuff that works for now if any of you have extras you want to sell. I'll upgrade later on. I'm damn near out of money now.
OH, Jay at American Rotary wasn't exaggerating when he said you could sit on the converter and carry on a phone conversation. It's actually that quiet. My electric and LP heaters are louder than the converter.
Witch one did you get? I mite need a new one soon.
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Coolant.
Trimsol was the standard for years but will get the funk going if you don't have a skimmer set-up.
The Valenite stuff is pretty funk resistant and lubricates well.
Any soliubule oil sucks.
Blasser lube is great stuff but kinda spendy.
Hangsterfer's also good stuff.
Using filtered water will greatly cut down on rust issues.
For the lube, one of the old lever pump type oil cans works well. Just jam the tip in and give it a couple of squirts..........
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I emailed Mobil and they suggested Mobilmet 426 so I ordered a couple gallons from Mcmaster. Spent the whole day adjusting shit. The mill is in good shape, but the headstock on the lathe needed to be aligned. The chuck needed to be adjusted true and some of the gibs are worn past being able to adjust. Stuck in some shim stock behind the gibs for now. Will have to look into a more proper repair. Also have occasional chatter problems. I think its cutter related, but I'm not familiar with proper set up of these CNMG negative rake inserts and holders.
Fast,
I got the 7.5hp cnc model for $700 shipped.
Jet tech support spoke very highly of the Phase Perfect set up that Fabr suggested. I called Jet to help figure out why my work light got toasted. Turns out the wild leg landed on that circuit causing 38 volts out of a 24 volt transformer. nono Switched some wires around and it's good now.
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I emailed Mobil and they suggested Mobilmet 426 so I ordered a couple gallons from Mcmaster. Spent the whole day adjusting shit. The mill is in good shape, but the headstock on the lathe needed to be aligned. The chuck needed to be adjusted true and some of the gibs are worn past being able to adjust. Stuck in some shim stock behind the gibs for now. Will have to look into a more proper repair. Also have occasional chatter problems. I think its cutter related, but I'm not familiar with proper set up of these CNMG negative rake inserts and holders.
Fast,
I got the 7.5hp cnc model for $700 shipped.
Jet tech support spoke very highly of the Phase Perfect set up that Fabr suggested. I called Jet to help figure out why my work light got toasted. Turns out the wild leg landed on that circuit causing 38 volts out of a 24 volt transformer. nono Switched some wires around and it's good now.
there's none better but a PP is not always needed
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So I've been adjusting and tinkering and I think I've done as much as I can. How accurate can I expect a part to be when removing from the chuck and then re-installing? I've got the 10" chuck (unknown brand, markings gone) on because pretty much everything I want to do in the near future will fit in it. I've been turning a 2 3/4" (now 2 1/2") piece of solid steel. I've gotten it to the point where I have 16" or so cut unsupported with no measurable taper. When supporting with a live center I also have no measurable taper. Sounds good so far. Now when I remove the part from the chuck and then re-install it, I'm out up to .003" (.0015" off center) at the chuck and up to .020" (.010" off center) at 16" out. I'm assuming this is coming from play in the jaws and not some alignment problem somewhere else. When I re-chuck and support with the live center, then I am still off right at the chuck, but good 16" out. Can I hope for anything better than this? Or is this about as good as it gets without spending thousands on a chuck? One of the jaws does appear to have been touched with a grinder. Not much, but noticeable. Could I set up a tool post grinder and correct this? Is it worth the effort? My lathe has a D1-4 chuck mount, is my current accuracy going to disappear when I swap chucks? In theory, it should stay the same because of the tapered nose the chuck gets pulled on to, but if it's going to change I'll just leave the damn thing on there and only swap when I need the 4 jaw.
Changed my cutter to a cemented carbide cheapy that I sharpened myself and it works awesome. I think I may stock up on them and leave the CNMG tooling in the drawer or put it up for sale.
I've got what looks like Flo-lock inserts and no holder. They are grooving/o-ring inserts. Anybody interested? I think I've got about a dozen or so. Will trade for something I can use. Got lot's of inserts I don't think I have a use for. Anybody interested PM me and I'll make a list.
I managed to make a kick ass brass hammer and 3/4" drive ratchet handle the other day. I tried getting pics, but my computer display is fxxked up and I can't tell if the pics are any good or not. Looks like a new computer is in my future too.
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Chucking repeatability is always an issue.
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So I've been adjusting and tinkering and I think I've done as much as I can. How accurate can I expect a part to be when removing from the chuck and then re-installing? I've got the 10" chuck (unknown brand, markings gone) on because pretty much everything I want to do in the near future will fit in it. I've been turning a 2 3/4" (now 2 1/2") piece of solid steel. I've gotten it to the point where I have 16" or so cut unsupported with no measurable taper. When supporting with a live center I also have no measurable taper. Sounds good so far. Now when I remove the part from the chuck and then re-install it, I'm out up to .003" (.0015" off center) at the chuck and up to .020" (.010" off center) at 16" out. I'm assuming this is coming from play in the jaws and not some alignment problem somewhere else. When I re-chuck and support with the live center, then I am still off right at the chuck, but good 16" out. Can I hope for anything better than this? Or is this about as good as it gets without spending thousands on a chuck? One of the jaws does appear to have been touched with a grinder. Not much, but noticeable. Could I set up a tool post grinder and correct this? Is it worth the effort? My lathe has a D1-4 chuck mount, is my current accuracy going to disappear when I swap chucks? In theory, it should stay the same because of the tapered nose the chuck gets pulled on to, but if it's going to change I'll just leave the damn thing on there and only swap when I need the 4 jaw.
Changed my cutter to a cemented carbide cheapy that I sharpened myself and it works awesome. I think I may stock up on them and leave the CNMG tooling in the drawer or put it up for sale.
I've got what looks like Flo-lock inserts and no holder. They are grooving/o-ring inserts. Anybody interested? I think I've got about a dozen or so. Will trade for something I can use. Got lot's of inserts I don't think I have a use for. Anybody interested PM me and I'll make a list.
I managed to make a kick ass brass hammer and 3/4" drive ratchet handle the other day. I tried getting pics, but my computer display is fxxked up and I can't tell if the pics are any good or not. Looks like a new computer is in my future too.
If your using a three jaw self centering chuck you will never get any better. Even if you were to use a four jaw chuck I don't think you would improve the runout at 16 inch's. If you are wanting repeatability then you will have to go to a collet chuck system. Chuck's have a scroll back and the wear in them will kill your repeatability.
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So I just need to call it good? Most of the things want I do are not going to be that critical. The ones that are can be dialed in with the 4 jaw and a live center or steady/follow rest.
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YUP
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Well....I just couldn't leave it alone.
Last night I turned up a set up bar (that's what I'm going to call it) so I can measure each chuck when I swap 'em. The bar is about 12" long with no measureable taper and hard as hell. Must be some type of stainless cuz I have never seen any rust on it. Anyways, I mounted my 6" chuck today. Put in my set up bar and it indicated .012" off at the chuck and double that a little ways out. No problem. We'll try again. Removed part, swung it around my head a few times, rechucked it. Still .012" off and double that a little ways out. I did this a few more times and came up with exactly the same result.
Move on to next check.
Removed chuck and rotated it one cam hole on the D1-4 mount. Repeated first method swinging the set up bar around my head and all. Same results several times through.
Removed chuck again and rotated it one cam hole and repeated first method again with the same results.
Moved on to check number three. Swapping jaws in slots. I didn't expect anything here to happen and measurements proved it.
Check number four was to try tightening with each socket. No noticeable difference here.
My conclusion is that this chuck must be about perfect (well as perfect as I can measure) and the mount is fxxked up.
So.....Removed the chuck and put the indicator on the spindle directly. .003" off on the mounting face, .003" off on the taper that centers the chuck, .003" off on the mt5 taper inside. I marked the high spot and it was the same all three times.
Conclusion.....fxxking spindle is bent. kick
I thought I was buying something ready to use, guess I was wrong. thumb down
Now, I'm thinking I don't give a shit about the MT5 on the inside. If I go with a collet set up, it will mount off the D1-4 mount. Will prolly be home made.
So I need to get the mounting face trued up and the taper that centers the chuck trued up and the right angle and dia.
I believe a tool post grinder is the proper tool for this, but I don't have one. Any reason I can't get good results with a really sharp brazed carbide or HSS bit? We are only talking about .003" here and I don't see how I could make it worse removing that little bit in all the right spots. More than enough material to do it the proper way if I fail.
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In all reality you will be chucking up a shaft,turning it to size and cutting it to length most of the time so who cares if it repeats? There will be very few times you'll need to rechuck. But.............................if ya just gotta...........................go ahead,knock yourself out. 8) 8) ;D ;D ;D ;D
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In all reality you will be chucking up a shaft,turning it to size and cutting it to length
Yes, but there are many things on my personal to do list that will require boring or cutting a face on one side and then flipping the part over to do the other. I'm sure it can be chucked up and indicated in a four jaw to compensate, but do I really wanna?
I guess I'm figuring that if I get this stuff taken care of now while it's new to me, then I won't be kicking myself every time I use it in the future.
Second option besides machining true is to turn up a MT5 taper on a big piece of shaft and then use leverage and a floor jack to straighten it. I'm not a big fan of that because it would stress the bearings and the spindle. It would however retain the ground faces that are already there.
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Gonna take a break and think it over. May also check what a new spindle cost (not looking forward to that). Then attack it later.
EDIT.
Just looked it up. $827 :o
I can do lots of fookin it up and brazing and re-fookin it up for that.
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Yes, but there are many things on my personal to do list that will require boring or cutting a face on one side and then flipping the part over to do the other. I'm sure it can be chucked up and indicated in a four jaw to compensate, but do I really wanna?
I guess I'm figuring that if I get this stuff taken care of now while it's new to me, then I won't be kicking myself every time I use it in the future.
Second option besides machining true is to turn up a MT5 taper on a big piece of shaft and then use leverage and a floor jack to straighten it. I'm not a big fan of that because it would stress the bearings and the spindle. It would however retain the ground faces that are already there.
No,huge PITA but doable................
I'm sorry but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, rofl OMG,you just made my day. I'm REALLY glad you qualified that with this;" I'm not a big fan of that because it would stress the bearings and the spindle." :) :) :) :) :) :) You were just kidding weren't you?
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No, I wasn't kidding.
I'm also no dummy. There are major consequences to going that route so I prolly will not try it. One of them being that Jet wants $511 for that bearing. Two, it could possibly break the casting where the bearing is and that would be a death blow. Three, I couldn't trust the spindle any more and would think about it breaking, flying off, and killing me every time I turned it on. Four, not likely, but it could damage/warp/twist the bed.
Current plan for fixing it is to face off the spindle first. That will bring it into a parallel plane with the ways. The short taper will still be out .003" but my 10" chuck is an "adjust-true" type and that .003" can be adjusted out. I will just have to clock it the same every time I swap chucks. That .003" will not affect the four jaw at all. I just won't be able to use my 6" 3 jaw for anything requiring less than .006" (?) concentricity.
In reality, I will prolly only be using the 10" "adjust-true" 3 jaw and the 8" four jaw. I don't know that using the 6" will ever be beneficial. It could prolly be sold off. It's a direct mount style, otherwise it could be modified to be an "adjust-true" type and work fine if clocked the same. Other than me mounting it for a few days, I'm not sure it was ever used.
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Good luck on that repeatability on rechuck. As Fast said,a collet is your best bet for that.Even then if your surface finish profile is not very smooth(and fairly hard) you will still not get a perfect repeatable chucking. But have fun getting it done to your satisfaction. Nothing wrong with that. I commend your dedication to perfection.Just gonna be a lot of work for relatively small if any gain. IMH(umble)O.
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As Fast said,a collet is your best bet for that.
Not if the hole it goes into is crooked.....which is where I'm at. If I at least correct the D1-4 portion, then I can make a collet holder that attaches there rather than in the center mt5 taper (which will still be off). I guess I should mention that I haven't even located a store bought collet set up so I don't know if it uses the Mt5 taper or the D1-4.
Even then if your surface finish profile is not very smooth(and fairly hard) you will still not get a perfect repeatable chucking.
It doesn't have to be accurate out to 4 or 5 decimal places. I would be happy with the 3 I can measure. From my consistently off 6" chuck that I measured this afternoon, I think that is doable. If I get the spindle corrected, that 6'' should be as close to perfect as I can measure. Even if I only get some of it corrected, I'm still better off.
I've worked with a lot of sloppy equipment and I see the chance to do better with my own stuff. So being my own boss....I'm gonna try.
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I may take a stab at making this type.
http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/donsmonarch10ee/?action=view¤t=DSC00222.jpg# (http://s170.photobucket.com/albums/u265/donsmonarch10ee/?action=view¤t=DSC00222.jpg#)
Yeah....I won't be buying this because of cost and the crooked MT5 taper.
http://www.topspincnc.com/products/5C-Lever-Style-Collet-Closer--for-JET-GH%252d1340,1440W-MT%235.html (http://www.topspincnc.com/products/5C-Lever-Style-Collet-Closer--for-JET-GH%252d1340,1440W-MT%235.html)
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Here's a vid so you see what I see. Somehow I lost the part where I measured to outside of the short taper, but it's off the same as the MT5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4umDxQ7KVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4umDxQ7KVE)
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Fixed.... Nice job Boost. Well thanks Boost. (pats self on back) What the hell, I'm talkin to myself anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeUoIL4qTVw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeUoIL4qTVw)
Is it perfect? No, but I think it's close enough to work.
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Is it perfect? No, but I think it's close enough to work.
Good for you sticking to it and getting to a solution. Does that mean you wont have to up chuck now?
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if you need good concentricity on rechucking the second op
then buy some soft jaws and bore them to the size you need.
if possible you should be chucking on somthing as you bore the
jaws and this should rid you of your runout.
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Fast was right tho. The scrolls are the culprit. Boost, try checking your runout when chucking/rechucking different OD pieces now. Take a 1" OD,a 1.5" OD and a 4" OD and test all of those out and report back. Doesn't have to be any sizes in particular,just a range.
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Last night I re-cut my mounting plate for the 10" 3 jaw since my spindle is now straight. Got the chuck mounted to the plate and adjusted it true. Now any run out is a result of the chuck.
I tried with some pieces ranging from 1/2" up to 2.5". Chuck 'em up, measure, re chuck, repeat. Did it many times with both the 6" 3 jaw and the 10" 3 jaw. Looks like I can repeat less than .002" at the chuck and less than .005" 8" out with very little effort. There was several times I got 0 (that I can measure) at the chuck and .002" or less at 8" out. Looks like I'm in pretty good shape at the moment. This was all checked without a live center for support.
I'd feel comfortable just chucking up a part and making my cuts with out even checking run out on most of the things I do for farm stuff. Finished diameter is much more important than concentricity. You know, making stub shafts to weld in the end of augers and such.
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So school me on collets. The bore taper is fooked on the lathe. So I'm going to have to make or buy a collet chuck. Something common would be nice. Should I go with something like an ER40 for it's wider clamping range and so I can use the same set of collets in the mill? Or should I go with a 5C setup because it will hold a larger dia and fit my spin indexer? Maybe adapt the spin indexer to ER40 and use the same collets in all three? I do like the larger capacity of the 5C, but they won't work in the mill and you have to buy more of them to hold odd ball diameters. I just don't want three different types of collets floating around. Simple is good. I currently only have one 5C collet and maybe 8 R8 collets. If I went with the ER40 then I could ditch the R8s. I don't have sizes to match all my end mills anyway.
Any other options? Am I missing something? I don't care about which is faster. Not doing production work here. No CNC equipment to worry about either.
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5C in some standard sizes and a safety collet for the oddball sizes. The large collets are very handy and you can get hex ones. You don't need to go buy a boat load right now, but you can build up your collection as you need them.