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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Member Project Logs => Topic started by: Simon on November 29, 2014, 04:19:21 PM
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Restarted this thread due to some technical issues.
Currently I have and Edge Barracuda which I have been modifying for a while to make it more suitable for racing. Before and after pics.
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Decided to go away from the edge design and have a go at something else of my own design. Wanted to use the front end I prototyped on the cuda, but also go to a trailing arm setup to really open up my drive-line options. Electric reverse sucks!
Experimented with 5 link for a while, but the cost of hiems really turned me off. Also, hard to get all of the shock mounts on the rear wheel carrier.
20" travel front,
18" travel rear.
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Experimented with 5 link for a while, but the cost of hiems really turned me off. Also, hard to get all of the shock mounts on the rear wheel carrier.
Why would you want to put them all on the carrier?
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I've seen pictures where people put them on the link, but just personally, I'm not a fan of putting a long (relatively) slender link into bending. Might be standard practice, but I didn't want to go that way.
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Current progress for the real item ....
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Good looking stuff there Simon.
Keep posting pics as you move along.
You will find a lot of knowledgeable and helpful people on here.
And one know it all prick welder Pat. LMAO
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I like the after pic of the cuda above. looks like you did a nice job and i bet it is a lot better for you too. do you have any other close up pics?
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you said you didn't like electric reverse, can you tell everyone why? not doubting you just never used it or know anyone that has or does. also if you decide to go with an a-arm rear instead of trailing arms you'll want to beef up that engine cradle area where it connects to the frame behind the seats. if you do go with trailing arms you'll prob be fine but i would add a little bracing there anyway. just a thought because i have seen an a-arm rear end start to crack there from the driving load of the a-arms.
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I like the after pic of the cuda above. looks like you did a nice job and i bet it is a lot better for you too. do you have any other close up pics?
A few. Here they are.
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And some more.
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you said you didn't like electric reverse, can you tell everyone why? not doubting you just never used it or know anyone that has or does. also if you decide to go with an a-arm rear instead of trailing arms you'll want to beef up that engine cradle area where it connects to the frame behind the seats. if you do go with trailing arms you'll prob be fine but i would add a little bracing there anyway. just a thought because i have seen an a-arm rear end start to crack there from the driving load of the a-arms.
I race this here in Aus, and part of the regulations is a functioning reverse. Electric gets me past scrutineering, and that's about it.
It has no power and is hard on batteries. I can't put a bigger ring gear in the edge rear housing and I never figured out a way to do a double reduction I liked.
That brace is there, just wasn't when I took the pic :). New car will definitely be semi trailing arm. Plenty of room for the drive.
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Just curious as to why no consideration for a arms rear. Too many heims?
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Nice work,BTW!!
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Just curious as to why no consideration for a arms rear. Too many heims?
Mainly because I want to make the drive a certain way and I didn't think I could do it with a-arms.
5 link had to many heims and was a bit complicated for me and I wasn't too keen on three link.
Trailing arm seems to work fine for all the other buggies in my club ;D.
Here some pictures of the reversing chain case.
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Nicely done. How much time do you have on it so far?
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Mainly because I want to make the drive a certain way and I didn't think I could do it with a-arms.
5 link had to many heims and was a bit complicated for me and I wasn't too keen on three link.
Trailing arm seems to work fine for all the other buggies in my club ;D.
Here some pictures of the reversing chain case.
Just curious as to what you can do with trailing arms that can't be done as well or better with a arms. There are advantages to a arms. WHat were the cons to using them other than the large number of heims,if you wish to discuss . Always looking for other view points . It's how we learn here.
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I would keep an eye on the bushing in the reverse gear. It will have a fairly high surface speed. Without pressurized lube to it, it may burn. Roller bearing would have been a better choice as it needs less lube.
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Thanks, ill keep an eye on it.
That's actually the forwards sprocket though. The bush will not be rotating relative to the shaft most of the time, only in reverse, so the speed shouldn't be to high.
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Thanks, ill keep an eye on it.
That's actually the forwards sprocket though. The bush will not be rotating relative to the shaft most of the time, only in reverse, so the speed shouldn't be to high.
I'd say no issue at all. Do I recall this idea being tossed around @ MBN or somewhere a couple years or so ago? Is this a first off prototype or have you been running it for a time?
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Thanks, ill keep an eye on it.
That's actually the forwards sprocket though. The bush will not be rotating relative to the shaft most of the time, only in reverse, so the speed shouldn't be to high.
Ah, chain is for forward. Bushing is the better choice for that then as it will have pretty low surface speeds in reverse.
Unless you plan on doing some top speed reverse runs LOL........
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Nicely done. How much time do you have on it so far?
A fair bit of time - I've lost track really. I'm not sure I want to think about it.
Just curious as to what you can do with trailing arms that can't be done as well or better with a arms. There are advantages to a arms. WHat were the cons to using them other than the large number of heims,if you wish to discuss . Always looking for other view points . It's how we learn here.
I'm not an expert. I don't mind the way the a-arms handle on my current car.
Main reason for trailing arms was around putting in the new drive I have made. with a-arms, the front top a-arm mount is in the way of the primary drive chain. Even more so because I'm planning on fully oil bathing it.
I found rear a-arms (the barracuda ones anyway) to be somewhat fragile. I got cracking in the lower arm and in the housing. Fixed by redesigning and adding trailing links, but the bushes still flog out relatively quickly. Lots of moving parts (relatively) means lots of maintenance.
Going to semi trailing arm means no complexity and hopefully little maintenance. I can get the camber change (at the expense of a little toe) and I have a lot of freedom with the drive. Hopefully the tendency the arms to arc backwards will maker them handle the real rough stuff a little better. Downside is the plunge on the cvs. I'm going to try and make my own midboard hubs.
I'd say no issue at all. Do I recall this idea being tossed around @ MBN or somewhere a couple years or so ago? Is this a first off prototype or have you been running it for a time?
Totally untested. I think the diff will be fine. I also think the double chain will last. If anything breaks it will be the dogs on the main drive selector or the bearings in the idler shaft.
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Ah, chain is for forward. Bushing is the better choice for that then as it will have pretty low surface speeds in reverse.
Unless you plan on doing some top speed reverse runs LOL........
Haha, hopefully not ;D.
Yep, double 530 bike chains for forwards. Hopefully it will do the trick. All adjustable, so if the stretch a bit it can be adjusted up again.
For the prototype, I got some cost effective "off the shelf" gears. They are made of a fairly low grade steel (1045) and pressed them on the shafts. Should be good enough for reverse, but I wouldn't transmit full engine power through them!
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Main frame is nearly done. Time to star making some trailing arms.
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Trailing arms and home made midboards coming along.
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Nice work, I like the jig.
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Very nice. Good to see someone also building major components instead of just buying. Mids are looking very good.
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nice work indeed
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Thanks. I hope they work. I'm pretty worried I won't get the travel out of the boot without distorting it, the only thing I couldn't draw. Drive shaft comes very close to where they clamp on at full droop. If worst comes to worse, I will have to remake the rear section to take a 934 boot.
Here is a couple of pics of the assembled unit. I will make the cap once I confirm my axle length.
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When I first read this I thought you made some nice arms for some midboards, then I was like crap he made it all!!!
And I was gonna give ya crap for being slow, but cant now cause your makeing then bolting the parts together where most just bolt the parts on.
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I wish I had the skills to machine parts like that and fabricate more on my build. I'm doing good to just to get mine done! :laugh: I am persistent, but slow and steady like the turtle. I hope it turns out faster than the turtle!
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I wish I had the skills to machine parts like that and fabricate more on my build. I'm doing good to just to get mine done! :laugh: I am persistent, but slow and steady like the turtle. I hope it turns out faster than the turtle!
Turtle won the race. ;D
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Turtle took the time to get it right!
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Nice work on the new car Simon , Any more updates ?
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Nearly got the bottom front a-arms made. Ended up going with the pipe version I showed you.
Got the engine out of the frame, cut the airbox out. Been looking at it and uming and ahhing about wether to used it. Don't like the way the filter sits in it. Looks OK for street, but not so good for offroad. I've been looking as some intakes made by MC Performance Fab and wondering weather I make something similar (using the original trumpets). Bit scared I will stuff the tune and it will run super lean or something.
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Front A-Arms
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Nice work! Uniballs and bushings !!!!! Durable!!
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A bit more work for the weekend.
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Nice! Very good to see the jeffco tilted way back to get a longer chain to it.
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Cheers mate,
That is my own reversing case, hope it works because I went to a fair amount of effort to make the engine/gearbox carrier. Hate to cut it all out.
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Cool!!
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Some more pics of latest progress.
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Hollow snouts on a minibuggy. COOL!
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Hollow snouts on a minibuggy. COOL!
And midboards.
I think he is serious.
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I run the 930 mids myself but never even gave it a thought to go hollow snouts. Now ,that is a true mini of full size!!!!
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I was bending the edge style stubs (a popular car make called Holden). 2" hollow spindle were a bit big, so I made as set of 40mm spindles. Never bent them so I using them on my new car as well.
I hope the homemade midboards work - 5 wide is not common in aus. Easy to get them but they are exy. I wanted to use a popular cheap 6 stud pattern. To do this I used 110x150x20 ball bearings to make everything fit. Tapered rollers near this size a rare as rocking horse shit and very expensive.
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Ooooooooooo,I'm not too sure on the ball bearing use. I wish you well . Ball bearings do not like taking loads from the side as I'm betting you know,you seem to be a techy type as well as a thinker.. Did you see if there was a same size tapered bearing just in case? Perhaps an angular contact ball bearing of same size?Maybe designed with a contingency plan? Not trying to be unduly negative ,just have reservations on the ball bearing taking side impact loads well for long. I hope I'm very wrong because ,as you said,the big bore tapered ones are lots of $$$$$$$$$ here and you are in Oz!!!!! Have to sell a kidney or something . Being the bearings are huge,hopefully yheir side load capacity is high enough. PLEASE report on results after you hit the test track. I'm seriously interested in your experience with them.
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Yep, I thought long and hard about it. I put an inner ring spacer between each bearing to try and get them to load share. To be safe, bearing manufacturers generally recommend you do not exceed 25% of the static load rating in axial force. The bearing I have selected has a 45kN (approx 10,100 lbf), so with two bearings load sharing (a big assumption), I should have around 22KN (5000 lbf) of axial load capacity.
Will it be enough? Time will tell I guess. What I learnt with the Barracuda bearing design was they never seemed to fail due to load - they were always full of crap due to ineffective sealing by relying on sealed bearings (they don't seal much at all). With my mid-board, I made sure I had good double lip seals in the design. Adds a shit tin of drag though.
If it all goes to custard, there are a couple of Timken tapered rollers I have my eye's on, but I doubt they will be cost effective. They are also not a direct replacement - I will have to manufacture new components.
Timken L522148WV/L522110V would be ideal.
Timken L623149/L623110 could be a close second.
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Yep, I thought long and hard about it. I put an inner ring spacer between each bearing to try and get them to load share. To be safe, bearing manufacturers generally recommend you do not exceed 25% of the static load rating in axial force. The bearing I have selected has a 45kN (approx 10,100 lbf), so with two bearings load sharing (a big assumption), I should have around 22KN (5000 lbf) of axial load capacity.
Will it be enough? Time will tell I guess. What I learnt with the Barracuda bearing design was they never seemed to fail due to load - they were always full of crap due to ineffective sealing by relying on sealed bearings (they don't seal much at all). With my mid-board, I made sure I had good double lip seals in the design. Adds a shit tin of drag though.
If it all goes to custard, there are a couple of Timken tapered rollers I have my eye's on, but I doubt they will be cost effective. They are also not a direct replacement - I will have to manufacture new components.
Timken L522148WV/L522110V would be ideal.
Timken L623149/L623110 could be a close second.
I'd agree. Ya,this is what I thought. Will be very interested in how the gamble works out long term. How much use/hours will your buggy see? Just curious as I would have been afraid not to use tapered with the amount of work involved in designing/building the mids.
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I will be doing about 6 x 200km races a year.
I have been getting the ball bearings cheap, so if they last a year, I'll be happy.
It took me 4 days to machine the midboards. Don't really want to do it again if I can help it!
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Broomstick makes a good dummy shaft to check the angles and lengths before parting with your hard earned for a real axle. ;D
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Looking good!!!!
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Those are some nice long broom sticks.
On the bearing issue. Seems like most rev box guys have issue with input shaft bearings. I'd think I'd use the same bearing as used in the m/c countershaft. Don't hear of many failures there. And proper lube.
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The bearings we were discussing are the huge ones that are in the mid board hubs,not the reverse unit.
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The bearings we were discussing are the huge ones that are in the mid board hubs,not the reverse unit.
drowning wrong forum drowning Dont mind me. Now the side load part makes sense.
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Motorbike output bearing I have seen was a double row ball bearing. They are pretty wide. This was in a CBR1100
Never actually seen one, but I've been told the RPM input shaft is only 1" in diameter. That's seriously tiny and I can understand why they use a tapered roller there.
I chose a 40 x 80 x 18 ball bearing for my input on my FNR. I chose that size because if I find it fails due to load, there is a cylindrical roller with exactly the same dimensions with almost double the capacity that is a direct replacement.
Trying the cheap way first though ;D.
Anyway, trial fit the front end yesterday. Looking like a car now.
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Getting excited yet??
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Sort off. Every time I do, I realize how much work there is to do.
Anyway, she is rolling.
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Sort off. Every time I do, I realize how much work there is to do.
Anyway, she is rolling.
Just keep thinking about how much you have accomplished so far.
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You never get done til it's sold and gone.
But I find when I get to about this point I make a list. This helps me stay focused on finishing ea little project. Also helps me make a parts list for all the tiny bits that are the real cost of building.
Triple bypass air shocks!! That's the ultimate tunable shock!!
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looking real good!! what kind of dog is that in the kennel? what are you hoping for weight? is that a fuel tank in front of the motor below the radiator?
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Thanks guys.
I'm hoping for under 600 kg (1200 lb). I've tried to be as mimalistic as I can, but it all starts adding up.
Yes, that is a fuel tank behind the seat. Standard place to put one in australian offroad - apparently it effects the balance of the car less over having it in the tail.
Not sure about the dog breed. That is actually my mates house and he has pig dogs. That dog is old Rocket and he has been retired to stud. :)
Yes the shocks are very tuneable. I'm still trying to get my head around it and I've had those shocks for about 4 years.
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nonoThanks guys.
I'm hoping for under 600 kg (1200 lb). I've tried to be as mimalistic as I can, but it all starts adding up.
Yes, that is a fuel tank behind the seat. Standard place to put one in australian offroad - apparently it effects the balance of the car less over having it in the tail.
Not sure about the dog breed. That is actually my mates house and he has pig dogs. That dog is old Rocket and he has been retired to stud. :)
Yes the shocks are very tuneable. I'm still trying to get my head around it and I've had those shocks for about 4 years.
+1!
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Ages since my last post. Got the power steering hooked up. Trying an electric hydraulic unit rather than make another pulley adapter for the crankshaft.
Got the radiator hooked up, the exhaust is made and air cleaner too. Plugged all the wires in and gave it a quick start. So far so good.
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Vroom,vroom sounds are always motivating!!!!
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looking good!
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Cheers, driving noises will be better ;D
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Righto. Panels - I hate them. no eye and no talent. So before I buy Aluminium, I've stuffed around with a bit of core flute.
What do you think I need to do to make this look better?
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I'd start by ditching the areas in red.Perhaps extend the front of the side panel a bit further forward as well.
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i would also weld a tube from the shock mount up to the roof to support the shock
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i would also weld a tube from the shock mount up to the roof to support the shock
Yup!
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Jeez, you guys aren't going to let me forget that brace ;D. I swear it is coming, I just haven't got around to it yet.
The rear triangle you have circled I'd actually already just sitting there. I added it it because I thought it looked better, but I will take it of and take another pic. I'm a bit limited in what I can do at the front because that area covers the dash. I will try and taper it to the rear a bit more.
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A bit of work with the old white out pen. I think a few curves improves the look. Bonnet needs to be slightly longer though.
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Much better,IMO. Rounding and blending works wonders.It just looks "faster" now.I'd still lop off some of the area in red.
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looks good and just making sure you don't for get lol
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Cheers mate. I was looking at it today and realized it might prevent me getting the radiator out. Might have to think of another idea.
Panels coming along. Got the sides on and done a bit of a mock up of the bonnet.
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Looking great,Simon. For that tube DS is wanting you to put in,make it removable if it is in the way by using camburg clamps. You need that tube,in our opinion.
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that will work
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These are good, but be forewarned. If they are in a stressed area they need to have a radius put in the corners.
The bottom picture is the way I had to fix it after the break.
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A bit more. Logbook application in. 2 weeks to finish a millions jobs. Some of it is going to be pretty rough for the first event. Couldn't be happier with how the midboards turned out. Hopefully ball bearings are good enough.
Look closely for the rear shock stiffener ;D.
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8) 8) 8) 8)
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First test of the car on the weekend. Everything went according to plan - even managed to drive the car back on at the end of the event.
Car has plenty of poke with the zx14. Home made gearbox performed flawlessly. Same with the midboards.
Tore down the gearbox and checked the internals after the event. Chain tension needs adjusting slightly, but otherwise all good. Dogs are perfect. I done a bit of grinding learning the best way to select forwards and reverse. Consequently found a small amount of damage on the engagement face of the reverse gears. These were cheap off the shelf items I done a home heat treatment on, so I'd say they fared well.
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Sounds great. What provision is there for chain adjustment?
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Diff bearing housings are bored eccentrically. I rotate the housing a set of holes to adjust the chain.
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Every time one of you takes a new ride out, I am in awe. Some folks here have mad skills. Me, not so much. Congrats on a good shake down run.
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Diff bearing housings are bored eccentrically. I rotate the housing a set of holes to adjust the chain.
Is the chain in the pic in need of a one hole adjustment or more than one hole? Or will it need more slack first? I guess what I'm asking also is how many adjustments will be available as the chain wears. I would think that after this initial break in it might not much further adjustment. Is that your thinking?
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Every time one of you takes a new ride out, I am in awe. Some folks here have mad skills. Me, not so much. Congrats on a good shake down run.
Maybe so but , you seem to know what works and what doesn't pretty much even if you don't do the actual work as much as some of us do.
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Simon, the body looks great now. Much improved from first draft!
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what size chain are you using inside that box? i would think transfer case chain would be best imo. also what about routing the chain on the inside of the idler? i really like the design and work!!
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Thanks very much for the kind comments.
At the moment, I'm at about half way on the chain adjustment. Like you say and in my experience, the chains stretch a little at first, then not so much. What I have been doing is rotating the adjuster until tight and backing off one hole. Even with th chains as is, it performed fine in forwards, but jumped a tooth in reverse where there isn't much engagement. I think a plastic buffer block around the idler would solve that problem in the event the chain is a bit loose.
There are two 530 chains in the box. Transfer case chain would work very well i think, but I didnt use it because the chains and the sprockets are quite expensive and not readily available in aus. I could fit a 2" one in. I designed this so I could buy 1 x 120 link chain and split in half.
Routing the chain on the inside of the idler is definitely better for the engagement, but unfortunately I would get two forwards gears - no reverse.
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Transfer case or silent chain and gears are expensive as all get out here as well.
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damn fine work!
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Thanks ;D
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Hey Simon - Looks really good. How did that electric power steering pump setup go in the end ? Does it keep up when turning fast from lock to lock ? Did you get your target weight ?
Great Job !
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Had a chance to do a decent test now mate - doesn't keep up. Will have to fit the mechanical pump again.
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Mods for the mechanical pump almost done. Just need to mount the pump and a pulley. Was able to reuse the bearing holder I made for my last engine. Alternators must come from a common supplier.
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Had some trouble with hot oil. Water temp was find, but the standard cooler wouldn't hold the oil temp on 40 degree C days.
Going to try the biggest cooler I could find (40 row) and a 12" thermo fan. Also spent fair bit of time making a ducting system to scoop cool air from the sides of the car.
Will see how it goes.
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Slight change to the panel design and powder coated. Just needs some stickers.
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Nice car!!!
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looks better and how is the oil pump working out?
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Looks Mean
Hair on fire Hair on fire Hair on fire
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Thanks guys
looks better and how is the oil pump working out
Do you mean the power steering pump mate?
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If you don't mind,show us a bit more about that pump drive.
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Thanks guys
Do you mean the power steering pump mate?
yep i thought it could be also used as an oil pump to cool a rev box
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This is the second drive I have made like this, once on a cbr1100 and this zx14. Seams to work fine. There is a few picture of how I made in a couple of posts earlier if you missed them, or do you want more? It just belt drives the power steering pump.
Box doesn't really get that hot, do I don't think it needs a cooler.
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Honestly,I was thinking of using it to drive an alternator. I get the general idea but was looking for a bit more detailed info such as is that a support bearing or just a seal,etc.? IF you wish to share it that is.
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No problems, there is no secrets there. There is a support bearing and a seal. I use a sealed bearing and the lip seal is on the inside. I couldn't find a bearing that was rated for crank RPM (Max I could find was 10000 RPM), so my line of thinking was that if the bearing died, the seal would stop crap getting into my motor.
To fit I bore out the center of the stator cover and drill the the stator hold bolt holes all of the way through and finish tapping them. My support bearing then bolts into these holes from the other side if that makes sense.
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I think I understand . Thanks.