DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)

Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" General Discusion => Topic started by: Baloo on August 02, 2018, 02:43:06 AM

Title: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on August 02, 2018, 02:43:06 AM: ok I have dropped my engine into my sxs and I don't like the car subframes now they look …………….. er well pants, anyway I always saw this as a prototype and might remake the chassis with out using the subframes but that led me to start looking at pictures of sand rails they look much neater with a transaxle as it all appears uniform or balanced, maybe this is what I should build after the sxs, so the question is does anyone here sell plans or kits or could we do a virtual design its probably the suspension I will struggle with, no sand dunes over here so suspension travel can be modest maybe 12to 18 inches ? would still be a car engine and box probably the audi v6 as it comes with a transaxle and is fairley short so it dosent push the seats to far forward thanks Andy
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on August 02, 2018, 03:45:25 PM: normally i wouldn't post a set of plans that had to be purchased. i have a set i cannot find now and the company went out of business way back when. if i find them i will post them. here is a pic though.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/vu5v0dkfb/post_16480_1271088486-20100923.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vu5v0dkfb/)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: fabr on August 02, 2018, 07:48:36 PM: That's too bad,I always enjoy what you have came up with. A good fabber will always know when to either come up with a new plan or when to throw in the towel.

Let's see if we can get some ideas floating around. To start with what wheel base and track width are you approx shooting for? What engine physical size approx? What power are you looking for? 2wd or 4? As far as wheel travel a LOT can be done with 12" or even less depending on what you have envisioned for this project. I'm ,at this point considering what you were trying to do with this last effort,thinking you may even only need 10" or so. Really well tuned 12" is a whole lot better than most with 16-20" and half assed shocks/tuning.

How much are you wanting to fab or are you wanting to try and use OEM stuff? Give us some idea of your goal and let's see where this goes.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: fabr on August 02, 2018, 08:01:31 PM: I just re read your post. I think I'm a bit off base with the reply but ................ we can still start the dialog.

I never thought I'd ever suggest using this a-holes plans but I have to admit they are VERY good plans if you really want to fab a buggy that will actually be pretty damn capable.The plans are very,very complete and I can attest from personal experience they are accurate. Pretty cheap also. I assume you are wanting to do a 2 seater? If not he has single seat plans as well. Here is a link to his 2 seater. Take a look. https://rorty.net/r82s
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: fabr on August 02, 2018, 08:57:13 PM: Here is another of his 2 seat buggies. 195AUD 195 AUD =110.345GBP Damn cheap for the most complete plans available. Aesthetically ,they can be tweaked a lot but the suspension design/geometry both front and rear is well designed. https://rorty.net/r16-shotgun-ii-0
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on August 03, 2018, 01:26:12 AM: Quote from: dsrace on August 02, 2018, 03:45:25 PM
normally i wouldn't post a set of plans that had to be purchased. i have a set i cannot find now and the company went out of business way back when. if i find them i will post them. here is a pic though.
(https://s15.postimg.cc/vu5v0dkfb/post_16480_1271088486-20100923.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/vu5v0dkfb/)
hi, would be interesting to see them but don't post up anything your not happy to do , that pic is what I had in mind more or less but shorter as a 2 seater
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on August 03, 2018, 01:31:37 AM: Quote from: fabr on August 02, 2018, 08:01:31 PM
I just re read your post. I think I'm a bit off base with the reply but ................ we can still start the dialog.

I never thought I'd ever suggest using this a-holes plans but I have to admit they are VERY good plans if you really want to fab a buggy that will actually be pretty damn capable.The plans are very,very complete and I can attest from personal experience they are accurate. Pretty cheap also. I assume you are wanting to do a 2 seater? If not he has single seat plans as well. Here is a link to his 2 seater. Take a look. https://rorty.net/r82s
hi, the sxs is still very much alive and will be finished before I start another but would like to play around with the suspension design for a sandrail, I have the R16 plans on cd somewhere I bought them years ago from rorty ( in Australia ? ) anyway I was wrong in asking for plans as I have a set of components and the suspension needs to fit them I guess rather than build to someone elses plans
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on August 03, 2018, 01:43:23 AM: so heres what started this rolling , I have inherited this vw passat, same as audi A6 I think (https://s19.postimg.cc/rsckcu5ub/DSC00488.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4qvz7366n/) (https://s19.postimg.cc/fqh6ioow3/DSC00489.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/gfzyv1pfj/) this uses a V6 all alloy engine with around 200 bhp, gear box is a transaxle so I can have equal length drive shafts and double A arm suspension ? gearbox looks something like this (https://s19.postimg.cc/bime9viar/s-l1600_GO77_WDQV.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/rtmi66usf/) (https://s19.postimg.cc/cxnyykw8j/s-l1600_I7_C45_PD3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q1tjb9oa7/) the front vw passat hubs look like they bolt in so would be easy to bolt into a fabricated rear upright assembly ? (https://s19.postimg.cc/hku10cjlf/passat_hub.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) the v6 passat using the transaxle obviously has equal length drive shafts like this (https://s19.postimg.cc/7kz4knioj/v6_drive_shaft.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fqh6it6xb/) but the 4 cylinder passat has a transverse engine and so it has a long and a short drive shaft so an option to use 2 long driveshafts like this might exist to push the wheels out further allowing longer A arms (https://s19.postimg.cc/kcdar606b/transverse_passat_driveshaft.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/h5ir7jfq7/)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on August 03, 2018, 01:46:43 AM: sorry about the spacing of my text my key board is having a hissy fit right now, the return key refuses to function at all
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 11, 2018, 08:44:36 AM: I finally got round to stripping the passat to get the drivetrain for a sand rail,
I will get some hard measurements in the next few days
dsrace did I see some pics of rear hubs you made/sold somewhere on here, is that where you would start ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ469VVK/47.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/47bbJPg5)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wT8ftPmN/48.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/6TcLgMz6)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 12:04:33 PM: right I stripped of some of the crap so we can see the engine and box a bit better

(https://i.postimg.cc/TPYHvB88/IMG-20181117-115549-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhp98Htn)

the distance between the output flanges on the gearbox is 11" but the point that the driveshafts seem to pivot around at the gearbox end is another 2.5" further out on each side giving a total of 16" is that where i want the A arms to pivot around

the driveshafts will push into the housing at the gearbox end around 2.5" they also have plunge? on the other end too

will do some marverlous felt tip drawings later
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 12:17:22 PM: on the audi/passat I took the engine out of it had double A arm on the rear , but the pivot points for the arms of massively offset with the lower arms pivoting 5" further in than the uppers, does this not cause the wheel to tip over and not rise and fall vertically ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mryT2Pgc/aud-rear-sus.png) (https://postimages.org/)

and just for reference the axle would look like this if it was all clean and shiny

(https://i.postimg.cc/J7vvvjN1/007.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 01:02:02 PM: Quote from: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 12:04:33 PM
right I stripped of some of the crap so we can see the engine and box a bit better

(https://i.postimg.cc/TPYHvB88/IMG-20181117-115549-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhp98Htn)

the distance between the output flanges on the gearbox is 11" but the point that the driveshafts seem to pivot around at the gearbox end is another 2.5" further out on each side giving a total of 16" is that where i want the A arms to pivot around

the driveshafts will push into the housing at the gearbox end around 2.5" they also have plunge? on the other end too

will do some marverlous felt tip drawings later

very interesting and at 11" you are just about spot on compared to the vw transporter vanagone ( commonly called 091) trans. so i wonder if you can remove the tail end of that trans that i assume was for the rear diff in a awd design? those inner cv's are tri pod's and are very weak so see if the outer used the same axle spline and can swap that cv off the rear diff drive axle to the inners? this will be very interesting!
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 01:05:28 PM: Quote from: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 12:17:22 PM
on the audi/passat I took the engine out of it had double A arm on the rear , but the pivot points for the arms of massively offset with the lower arms pivoting 5" further in than the uppers, does this not cause the wheel to tip over and not rise and fall vertically ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/mryT2Pgc/aud-rear-sus.png) (https://postimages.org/)

and just for reference the axle would look like this if it was all clean and shiny

(https://i.postimg.cc/J7vvvjN1/007.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

if you also notice there also mounted at an angle like a rake angle. remember the car only has like 4 to 6" of travel so they get away with those positions for better handling in light smaller packaging. the purpose of all that is to achieve neg/pos camber control, to roll the suspension back over a bump and control bump steer etc etc all in one through prob a 4" stroke if one accounts for the bump stop. this is my opinnion as i am not a vw engineer.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 01:48:33 PM: I agree that's what I figured 4" of travel on a good day
anyway lets forget about that and move onto something with 12" of travel

and it was these hubs I was thinking about

(https://i.postimg.cc/J4qrLTPN/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

, do you sell them and any idea about cost of shipping to uk ? think it will be prohibitively expensive, and my hubs will have different bolt spacing as well

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm3rkTFb/passat-hub.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 01:58:57 PM: what size rose joints are you boys using

I was thinking of 20mm which is 3/4" in your money

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POS20-20mm-Male-Rose-Joint-Rod-End-Bearing-M20-Right-Hand-RVH/272224293735?epid=590201484&hash=item3f61d51367:g:XAAAAOSwCkZZQlx6:rk:12:pf:0

is that to big ?
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 02:56:09 PM: i used to but i do have 2 pair left. so i have unused blamks plus the laser cut 1 piece tabs or for a special christmas offer i have a pair of used ones that came off my sand rail when it was a 6 link. i know you could modify them for your use and you pay the shipping and it'll only cost you 1 uk pound mailed to me to hang on my wall. :D
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sjz3MGTW/IMG-20181117-153451.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Sjz3MGTW)

(https://i.postimg.cc/B8Ykx7fC/IMG-20181117-153501.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/B8Ykx7fC)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 02:58:19 PM: used ones, as a special bonus they come with caked on little sahara sand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gLD0sPz7/IMG-20181117-154241.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gLD0sPz7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4YhQ88c5/IMG-20181117-153639.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4YhQ88c5)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hfvrm4PN/IMG-20181117-153646.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hfvrm4PN)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QHzqJLFC/IMG-20181117-154225.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHzqJLFC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nM02M9Zv/IMG-20181117-154235.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nM02M9Zv)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:01:40 PM: working on more front end kit spindles. the stubs thread in then get welded on both sides. doug heim idea and damn good one.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0M6kmJFb/IMG-20181110-151857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0M6kmJFb)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VSkLfhF9/IMG-20181110-151904.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSkLfhF9)

(https://i.postimg.cc/75VZy4SY/IMG-20181110-151910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75VZy4SY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FYmHqzdB/IMG-20181110-151918.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FYmHqzdB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mc3ZvYsC/IMG-20181110-152330.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mc3ZvYsC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1VqzxNrL/IMG-20181117-154247.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VqzxNrL)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:05:53 PM: Quote from: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 01:58:57 PM
what size rose joints are you boys using

I was thinking of 20mm which is 3/4" in your money

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/POS20-20mm-Male-Rose-Joint-Rod-End-Bearing-M20-Right-Hand-RVH/272224293735?epid=590201484&hash=item3f61d51367:g:XAAAAOSwCkZZQlx6:rk:12:pf:0

is that to big ?

i use 3/4" on my rears and 5/8" on my front a arms, both chromolly.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 03:11:34 PM: Quote from: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 02:58:19 PM
used ones, as a special bonus they come with caked on little sahara sand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gLD0sPz7/IMG-20181117-154241.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/gLD0sPz7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4YhQ88c5/IMG-20181117-153639.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4YhQ88c5)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hfvrm4PN/IMG-20181117-153646.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hfvrm4PN)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QHzqJLFC/IMG-20181117-154225.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHzqJLFC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nM02M9Zv/IMG-20181117-154235.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nM02M9Zv)

well they certainly look robust enough, let me go measure my hubs to see if they will fit , what size rose joints did you use since i would need to use the same
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:12:13 PM: well there selling beach buggies over there so you must have sand ;D ;D

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/vw-beach-buggy-classic-vw-buggy-vw-beetle/264036554399?hash=item3d79ce169f:g:AG8AAOSwIUpbyxya:rk:2:pf:0
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:13:41 PM: Quote from: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 03:11:34 PM
Quote from: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 02:58:19 PM
used ones, as a special bonus they come with caked on little sahara sand.

well they certainly look robust enough, let me go measure my hubs to see if they will fit , what size rose joints did you use since i would need to use the same

i used 5/8" heim joints with high misalignment spacers that reduce down to a 1/2" bolt.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:15:20 PM: Quote from: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 01:48:33 PM
I agree that's what I figured 4" of travel on a good day
anyway lets forget about that and move onto something with 12" of travel

and it was these hubs I was thinking about

(https://i.postimg.cc/J4qrLTPN/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

, do you sell them and any idea about cost of shipping to uk ? think it will be prohibitively expensive, and my hubs will have different bolt spacing as well

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm3rkTFb/passat-hub.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

in this picture you can see the high misalignment spacers that go into the heims. 1 heim has them in it and the others were just floating to check spacing.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:16:59 PM: you may have to weld a reducer plate in for your wheel bearings.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 03:20:30 PM: Quote from: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:16:59 PM
you may have to weld a reducer plate in for your wheel bearings.

will let you know tomorrow but would still be cheaper than starting from scratch depending on shipping
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 03:25:25 PM: Quote from: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:01:40 PM
working on more front end kit spindles. the stubs thread in then get welded on both sides. doug heim idea and damn good one.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0M6kmJFb/IMG-20181110-151857.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0M6kmJFb)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VSkLfhF9/IMG-20181110-151904.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/VSkLfhF9)

(https://i.postimg.cc/75VZy4SY/IMG-20181110-151910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75VZy4SY)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FYmHqzdB/IMG-20181110-151918.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FYmHqzdB)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mc3ZvYsC/IMG-20181110-152330.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mc3ZvYsC)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1VqzxNrL/IMG-20181117-154247.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1VqzxNrL)

if they are threaded in and welded both sides I would imagine a nuclear explosion wouldn't persuade them out, good call
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:27:58 PM: lol ya it's a nice safety net lol

i sent you a pm with some info of a source over there on your side of the pond for spacers and heims.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 03:35:08 PM: Quote from: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 03:27:58 PM
lol ya it's a nice safety net lol

i sent you a pm with some info of a source over there on your side of the pond for spacers and heims.

got it thanks
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 18, 2018, 08:33:07 AM: what's the distance between the top and bottom bolt holes and what size wheels are you using ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRZxQCJ1/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 18, 2018, 01:19:44 PM: 8.25" for the height measurement your asking and 6.62" on center in width. i run a 31-10.5x15 dirt tire and paddle tires are 1450's. they are advertised as 31" but are not. so say 30" tall - 14.50 wide x15" rim.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 20, 2018, 08:18:14 AM: right I have some numbers

(https://i.postimg.cc/JhgT4Sr9/s-l1600-GO77-WDQV.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HB5s7F3)

the out put flange on the side of the gearbox id 5" in diameter hanging below that is 3" of gearbox, I assume I don't want any gearbox hanging out the bottom as it will hook or smash on rocks, so if the bottom pivot is level with the bottom of the gearbox and I make the top pivot 3" above the flange so the driveshaft is in the middle height wise then I would have around 11" of separation between the top and bottom wishbone at the gearbox end, could stretch that to 13 or 14" if it was beneficial ?

at the wheel end of the wishbones I am going to have the height of the hub 9" ? but then I have to leave room for the calipers
that might be 4" ? so that gets us to around 17" which is perhaps why the original car was on 18" dia alloys

length of the A arms would be around 24" if I make them to match the pivot points of the driveshafts which themselves have around 3" of plunge in them

do all those numbers sound plausible ?

Andy

(https://i.postimg.cc/dV976Dpc/IMG-20181120-145556.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9DrFFXcL)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 09:36:24 AM: so from the last pic on your tablet......my answer is no. dont do it that way. you want to keep everything pivoting equally in the rear as in on parallel planes and all pivots at the same time. so you need to make a jig off the wheel bearing carrier including the cv mount and then bolt that to your cv trans side and weld the tabs to the frame so they match the carrier. this keeps all points pivoting equal in xny and g cooridanates. now if you feel comfortable and want to induce neg camber in the rear you can lower the upper a arm say 3/8" at the frame so its mounting points are 3/8" lower than the carriers upper point ( in relation to its point from center of cv and center of bottom pivot) and this should get you close to -2 or -3 * camber change through the stroke. that statement is based on my front ends and at 22 to 24" wheel travel.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 09:38:51 AM: so your a arms need to pivot on center equally with the center of the cv also.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 10:26:39 AM: https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5336.180
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 20, 2018, 11:22:59 AM: Quote from: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 09:36:24 AM
so from the last pic on your tablet......my answer is no. dont do it that way. you want to keep everything pivoting equally in the rear as in on parallel planes and all pivots at the same time. so you need to make a jig off the wheel bearing carrier including the cv mount and then bolt that to your cv trans side and weld the tabs to the frame so they match the carrier. this keeps all points pivoting equal in xny and g cooridanates. now if you feel comfortable and want to induce neg camber in the rear you can lower the upper a arm say 3/8" at the frame so its mounting points are 3/8" lower than the carriers upper point ( in relation to its point from center of cv and center of bottom pivot) and this should get you close to -2 or -3 * camber change through the stroke. that statement is based on my front ends and at 22 to 24" wheel travel.

not sure I understand all that any pics that might help me ?
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 20, 2018, 11:23:32 AM: Quote from: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 10:26:39 AM
https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5336.180

wow plenty of reading there, I better get started
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 11:55:19 AM: lets put it this way......using my wheel bearing carriers ( the ones i said i would give you for $1 pound) . they have an up and down center measurement of 8.25" and 6.62" on centers ( of heims joints) left to right. i dont have one in front of me but lets say the cv is centered in the middle of all 4 of those points. you will want the same spaceing (mounting points) on the frame surrounding the cv joint. now with a wheel bearing and 930 flanged stub axle, those 4 point travel directly through the center of the cv joint so the center of the heim joint piovots on the same plane/ parrellal line as the heim. all pivot at the same time on the same lines. does that make more sense? i'm not good at explaining this, i just know it. there are variations to this for different applications but what i descibed is the simplist way.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 11:58:54 AM: in your drawing you show a spread of 11" on center at frame for the inside pivot points. at the wheel you show what looks like 9". if you do that you will wind up with major pos camber and i mean major. now major camber depends on amount of wheel travel of course.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 20, 2018, 12:18:50 PM: Quote from: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 11:58:54 AM
in your drawing you show a spread of 11" on center at frame for the inside pivot points. at the wheel you show what looks like 9". if you do that you will wind up with major pos camber and i mean major. now major camber depends on amount of wheel travel of course.

so are we saying that the top and bottom wishbone need to be parallel to each other, if they are 9" apart at the wheel end then also 9" where they join the chassis, in which case I have to start with the hub plate ?
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 01:01:20 PM: yes and the cv location in the carrier needs to match at the frame as well.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 03:56:40 PM: like this
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: fabr on November 20, 2018, 04:04:39 PM: Ds is taking good care of you. I've been quite busy but can't add anything to what he is saying anyway. He and I agree on all of it.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 20, 2018, 07:05:54 PM: starting with what i call the wheel bearing carrier and your calling the hub plate is the best and only way imo. with that being said, you do need to make sure you will have the room on the frame. will you have enough room for tabs or some mounting bracket to bolt the heims to above and below the cv that all pivot on the same line through the center of the cv pivot point.

now if you really want to wade out into the deep end on your first attempt and want to develop ( i call induced) neg camber ( top of wheel leans in towards frame) for cutting and cornering then you'll need to get creative on the hub plate ( carrier) and/or mounting points at the frame.

using my front ends as an example. the majority of my customers don't run front brakes. they run spindle mount rims so the center of the rim hub centers the tire on the spindle snout. so knowing that most run 6.75 tires ( maybe one size larger) i know where the scrub radius needs to be. i then know that on my spindles what the SAI needs to be to achieve positive scrub radius that i feel works best. so now i know that with my un equal length a arms ,the neg caster i pre set and a lowered upper a arm pivot point on the frame , i can develop a -3* camber arc through a 24" wheel stroke. now when doing this as the wheel leans in the steering rack isn't going to move with it so it wants to push the steering arm out in to toe out. the next step is to weld the a arms on the frame at a rake of such that send them back at an angle to off set that push, to alleviate toe out which is bump steer. then if you throw anti dive into the mix it gets even more complicated and we won't touch that subject unless fabr has time for a debate ;) :m just kidding

so why am i saying this? well because this is another simple and easy way to develop neg camber in the rear ( less the tie rod and rack interference) and along with the right rim offset for a true pos scrub angle. i did not do this on my rear end as i didn't have the room around the drive flange at the trans and any kind of time frame to design a new way. i do plan on looking at doing this on my next frame. so i just pre set 1* of neg camber on my rears and it develops .5* neg camber through it's 23.5" wheel stroke also. keeping it simple and straight will allow the tire to skid across the ground making it easier to drift but that can go to far if the front can't compensate by grabbing and cornering. that's where it get real fun imo and even more so in the dirt!!

something to read...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

https://www.freeasestudyguides.com/included-angle.html

https://www.quora.com/How-negative-camber-provide-benefits-to-vehicle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ackermann_steering_geometry

this is most important on the front end and i pre fer front steer in offroad applications. a neg camber arc in the rear is beneficial but not a must have for all.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 22, 2018, 11:27:03 AM: when you think about it its pretty obvious the top and bottom arms have to be parallel to each other to get the hub to rise and fall vertically isent it, I have made some plastic arms to play around with and see what happens when I move the mounting points

the new rear hubs I have have the fixing bolt holes at 4" centres which means they will fall half on and half off the holes in the centre of your wheel bearing carrier , not good will ponder

how much is your front end kit ? and can I use it with brakes ?
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 22, 2018, 02:36:25 PM: front end kit is $1900 normally. it is set up for front brakes to bolt on but you would have to use combo link front brakes if you want them to bolt on.

one place for the brakes
https://www.kartek.com/parts/jamar-performance-combo-link-front-disc-brake-kit-with-2-piston-calipers-and-10-rotors.html

i'm not sure it would be cheap to ship one over when it runs $200 to ship half way across the US at 100 lbs and in a box 32x32x36"

the plastic rods idea is a good idea to experiment with. the spread at the frame should never be wider than at the wheel. equal to lower.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 25, 2018, 11:19:25 AM: so we have decided that the A arms need to be parallel to each other when viewed from the front or back of buggy and probably about 9" apart ??

what about the spread when viewed from above, the letter A springs to mind when thinking about A arms for some reason ;)
like
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMV2Xbs0/IMG_20181125_180742.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FdyK5yJt)

but at the rear the front most inner mounting point is going to fight to exist with the cylinder head so can I come straight out at 90 deg from the gearbox with the front leg and then throw the rear one right back to give it some stability. if the pivot points are in a straight line then it will be ok wont it ?

like
(https://i.postimg.cc/G29s961N/IMG_20181125_180730.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zbZfctvS)
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 25, 2018, 01:38:27 PM: properly braced that should work. as far as 9" apart well that's your determination on what carrier you build or use. as long as it equal on the both ends then that 9" number is up to you. the upper and lower a arms do not need to be shaped the same but do need to pivot on the same parallel lines top to bottom in the center of the cv with no neg camber change in mind.
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: Baloo on November 25, 2018, 01:43:39 PM: yes the 9" is just a determination at this point, which I assume is dictated by getting the hub plus caliper inside the wheel
is it a case of make the arms as far apart as possible that will still fit inside the wheel rim or is there a figure you aim for ?
Title: Re: sand rail design
Post by: dsrace on November 25, 2018, 05:55:02 PM: Quote from: Baloo on November 25, 2018, 01:43:39 PM
yes the 9" is just a determination at this point, which I assume is dictated by getting the hub plus caliper inside the wheel
is it a case of make the arms as far apart as possible that will still fit inside the wheel rim or is there a figure you aim for ?

this is what i always shoot for. since diff rims have diff transitions i would prob shoot 1 to 2" smaller than the rims unless you are starting with the smallest id rim.