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Machinery, Trailers, Toyhaulers and Motorhomes => Machinery Builds => Topic started by: Nutz4sand on October 01, 2010, 10:42:15 PM
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Ok Need a little input here to help me out if anyone can a tad. Trying to do this without to much hoopla (Ok thats kinda a joke once you learn more about this but hey!). But open to any ideas.
First off are some typical wheel studs. You all know them Threads and splines and a stop land. The second pic is a stud in a hub. See how its flush? Ever see one stick out each side of a hub?
Anyone know of a stud that is splined to grab the hub but will go with threads in both directions? So it sticks out the front side to grab the tire and the back side too to add something bolt on there? With or without the stop flange?
Now the third, fourth, and fifth pic are an axle I just bought real cheap ($20) with good hubs/bearings but the axle is bent. That does not matter as I need to cut the axle way down short after I clean up the hubs and regrease the bearings.
BUT I would like the studs to stick out the back side of the hubs! As well as the front!
Why you ask? Why indeed. I am going to use this axle on my bender stand as its gotten to heavy for the little cheapo tires I had for it.... (Even with four tires on the one axle they were struggling and its not loaded yet!)
Its also too heavy to push around easy on rough terrain.... (It will not spend its life on concrete all the time) SOOOoooooo I need the bolts to stick out the back side so I can put/mount a sprocket on them. This sprocket will then be driven via chain by a small electric motor to spin the tire on that side hub to help it move the stands weight.
The last four pics show Rick S.'s trailer hub brake disc mod which gave me this idea.
But instead of a brake disc and an ATV wheel I will be making it a with a different wheel (small trailer weight carrying wheel. I got two picked out and just need to figure out which one I will buy) and different offset with my tire than in his pics and with a sprocket to drive the tire instead of a disc brake stopping it.
This sprocket will be driven by wheelchair motors and the wheelchair only does maybe five-six MPH with me in it (or so). I plan to gear it down a lot (guesssing about three to one) as the wheelchair with batteries is heavy and I weight 280 or so but it moves me with ease. But the bender stand is gonna be in the 650 pound range before I am done (no I aint joking... But it will not tip over with a tube hanging off it!! ;D ;D).
So I need a little stoutness in this design for the load but not to worried about the 2-3 mph its gonna cook along at (tiny misalignemn not gonna hurt but I am gonna try to get it straight as possible). I figure if it can withstand brake shock loads on the front of a 700ish pound buggy at speed I should be OK.
Yes I do need this drive to move it. I had it set up like a wheelbarrow (like I originally planned it) and trying to push it up the ramp into my big trailer at just over 600 pounds (Uncomplete and not with all my dies on it so it will weigh more!) like a wheelbarrow was about all I could do. Plus it will be nice as the tires will be enough to carry it outside to bend on nice days when I want to bend taller than my ceiling while in vertical bending mode (It will bend vertically and horizontally for those who do not know)
There are two wheel chair motors so I can steer it too. I got the whole chair to use and its too fun to drive it around! But it must be sacrificed to the God of frivolous bender mods! So each wheel needs to be on its own set of bearings and I cannot just put it all on one solid axle.
If I gotta I will do the same mods as Rick did and buy the bolts like he used and drill them and counter sink the heads.
But I figured if I could just find studs with the proper spline to match the hubs but with thereads in both directions just press them in and bolt it all together so they do not pull out one way or the other! Studs with a flange on one side AND threads would be cool but I may be asking to much.
I have also contemplated just flipping the studs around and pressing them in so they poke out the back and mounting the tire on that side of the hub (Its VERY flat and flat enough easily for 2-3 MPH) and then getting either those coupling nuts and using them to extend threads OR I have seen nuts with female threads at one end and a male threaded stud sticking out the other end but I do not know what they are called? Anyone know?
I got the axle cheap enough I can not use it for this if a better idea comes along. But in a nutshell I need two heavy duty smaller trailer tires (18 inches tall MAX on the rubber and cannot be more than 7 inches wide max rubber width per tire) I can hook drive chains to. Its all gotta fit inside a 26.5 inch wide space and I need room for it to move up and down! So that means I need the room in the middle for the wheel chair drives and a place to hook the air shocks that push the wheels down and lift the bender up!
Good thing I don't ask for much... :P
One other thing I have considered is the older hubs used to use LUGBOLTS instead of studs with lugnuts. The lugbolts hubs were threaded all the way thru (like older beetle VW stuff. Which just gave me a lil idea) and with threads all the way thru the hub I would only need threaded rod to cut to length and spin in to place. Bolt the tire up and add the spacers on the back to hold the sprocket where I need it.
Prob is I cannot find the trailer hubs like that for little trailer wheels that are not old rusted junk that people want two fortunes for! Nor any close to me.
I can and will go with four bolt OR five bolt hubs. Think little tires like a small boat trailer or sled hauling trailer use. This axle I got is off a smaller boat trailer. Thanks for any input and BLESS YOU(!!) if you read all that! ;D
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Low speed? Drill out the holes and use a long fine thread bolt or a lug bolt. Hubs that are already threaded would be great for this. Use a long lug bolt to hold the wheel on and then the nubs on the backside to bolt your sprocket or whatever to.
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Yah low speed (2 mph baby!) Not 100 percent sure drilling the the holes would be OK as then the rims would not fit (of course I could drill them too)
I suppose clamping would hold but I wanted a bit of tapered surface holding of Lugnuts. I am just wierd with that.
Like I mentioned above the VW old bolt thru hubs gave me an idea and I am looking and have found a good bit on them already that looks promising!
Old Beetle Disc breaks or just old beetle hubs with threaded bolt holes AND easy to get bearings!
Plus I live 12 miles from Appletree Automotive (VW stuff big time) so I am going there in the morning! See if they got some old ones I can pillage cheap!
Looking at a good few links now on the VW beetle front brake stuff I have googled. Its looks good and might be what I was seeking all along!
I will pop some more pics up if I strike paydirt!
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1. Remove studs.
2. Get long piece of all thread the same size as studs.
3. Spin a nut down the all thread about 2".
4. Stick 2" side of all thread through where the stud was.
5. Bolt wheel on with acorn nut.
6. Use two wrenches to tighten.
7. Repeat on other 4 holes.
8. fasten sprocket (that you put over axle before step 1) between two nuts on the all threads.
9. ??
10. Profit!
You said slow moving.... and how many times will you need to take it apart?
Slightly tougher method would have spacers between the sprocket and hub and could use bolts or all thread fed through sprocket then spacer then hub then wheel then acorn nut.
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I was looking for hubs with that use Lugbolts instead of lugnuts just so I could use allthread a nut to hold the tire on the front and spacers to the sprocket out the back.
Found the hubs at a local hardware but they do not have the right spindles for them! Been trying like hell to find the a axle of Craigs list like it with everything there (hub and axe and maybe tires I like and could use) but the only one I found is old and rusted bad. By the time I clean it all up ($$ time and stuff to do it) I might be better off just buying new!
I picked up a cheap boat trailer axle as mentioned (and pictured) and drove out one of the studs. No double studs that fit the holes and drilling them will make the larger fit but then they do not fit the rims.
I did get a long bolt that matches the threads of the lugnuts Its not a perfect fit in the hub holes (due to the larger size for the splines of the stock lug) but I may try a lil piece of shim stock around it tommorrow (headaches floored me again today)
But the bolt idea might work to hold a sprocket to the hub with spacers for proper alingement stability. Then just bolt the hub and sprocket on as one piece. Hopefulley play with it more tommorrow.
Also got a spare stock lug bolt and gone weld a nut to it and press it in. Then I got a double ended stud (like an exhaust manifold stud but its greade 8) I can thread in and see if its stable enough. Not my fav idea though.
I wonder if all thread (even with five peices for five lug nuts) would hold the torq by themselves sticking out there or would need/want a largerish bushing around it to increase surface area? You know keep the boat from rocking so to speak?
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Seems like 5 all threads would be pretty tough. Keep the sprocket as close to the tire as possible.
Even though the all threads would be slightly larger than the stud hole, the acorns nuts will center them up. Does the wheel have a pilot in the middle? If not countersink the rear side of the hub where the stud pressed in then use an acorn nut on the back side of the hub as well as on the wheel..... Then it will definitely center up.
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Low speed? Drill out the holes and use a long fine thread bolt or a lug bolt. Hubs that are already threaded would be great for this. Use a long lug bolt to hold the wheel on and then the nubs on the backside to bolt your sprocket or whatever to.
+1. Red loctite or better yet green loctite stud/sleeve ratainer.Problem solved.
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Seems like 5 all threads would be pretty tough. Keep the sprocket as close to the tire as possible.
Even though the all threads would be slightly larger than the stud hole, the acorns nuts will center them up. Does the wheel have a pilot in the middle? If not countersink the rear side of the hub where the stud pressed in then use an acorn nut on the back side of the hub as well as on the wheel..... Then it will definitely center up.
+1
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Seems like 5 all threads would be pretty tough. Keep the sprocket as close to the tire as possible.
I do plan on keeping it close to the wheel as I have to wedge this in a pretty narrow chassis. I am looking at tires that are a lil skinnier than I wish just to make sure it fits and clears durings movement of the swingarm the axle will be on. But in the same breath I want the fatter tires for more floatation on sandy surfaces. Its gonna be TIGHT with the fatter tires if I go that way.
Even though the all threads would be slightly larger than the stud hole, the acorns nuts will center them up.
The all thread is a lil smaller than the holes are At elast the all thread that will fit the lug nuts that are still small enough to work with these little tires I am looking at using (I aint bought the tires yet. Still got a couple I am debating on)
The stock splines make the stud larger at the spliend aprt so that differance needs to be delt with I think. I jsut need it to be good enough the chain does not de-rail but there is a fair amount of slop around just the threads.
Does the wheel have a pilot in the middle?
?????? Not sure what you mean by this above?
If not countersink the rear side of the hub where the stud pressed in then use an acorn nut on the back side of the hub as well as on the wheel..... Then it will definitely center up.
Thats not a bad idea if I have to do it. Not as stable as a large flat area pressing on the hub though. Which I would prefer given the choice.
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Ok my head really hurts now. I see now what you meant by a pilot in the center of the rim.
As far as I am aware now the lug nuts are what center the tire on the hub and the hole is a good bit larger on the rim than the hub.
Imma lay down for bit afore I fall over.
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Redrill and tap holes.problem over.
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Redrill and tap holes.problem over.
Thought about that. If I do have to do that I might just do just like Rick S. did above with the brake mod. Heck I was even thinking if I did it like he did it I would counter sink the holes AND tapp them. But likely do not need all that.....
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Thought about that. If I do have to do that I might just do just like Rick S. did above with the brake mod. Heck I was even thinking if I did it like he did it I would counter sink the holes AND tapp them. But likely do not need all that.....
Gee,ya think? Are you sure? I mean that blazing top end mph will get scary if it isn't nutzon ya know. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
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Where's that friendly sarcasm icon when you need it anyway? LOL!!!!
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Those little tires usually don't have a pilot on the hub. They just center up with the acorn nuts....
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Gee,ya think? Are you sure? I mean that blazing top end mph will get scary if it isn't nutzon ya know. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
rofl rofl rofl
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Where's that friendly sarcasm icon when you need it anyway? LOL!!!!
ask and you shall receive Sarcasm.
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ask and you shall receive Sarcasm.
TaDaa!!!!!!!! Sarcasm ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Nutz, are you trying to put a sprocket on those style hubs?
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If you are how about pressing out the studs in the hub and make your own like in the pic bellow.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm73%2Fwyattboche%2Fhub.jpg&hash=a4f440414dbfbaa2426af59623882aff17326c4f)
You can make the stud on the back to a diffrent length to suit.
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Yep I need a sprocket on each hub on each side. But not totally following you Wyatt on the piscs you posted? But lets see if I am close.
Those new studs pressed in have huge backsides on them. Is it a threaded hole? That I could add a stud too? I think thats what you are trying to show.
Prob is I cannot see the big fat round end to see if its got a hole with threads in it. Plus I would have to find studs that matched the diameter of the hub I have now. If they existed Yah I would be all over that!
Something I did today between headaches was cut a lil piece of shim stock (.010 shim stock as it was what I had handy) and curled it around a 4 inch long 1/2 inch fine thread grade 8 bolt.
The shim stock fits in the hub where I pressed the splined stud out and it allows the bolt to slide thru with only the TINIEST amount of play. I am talking very little. So little everything will line up excellantly (If I keep it under 3mph I should be fine! :laugh: )
The fine threads of the 1/2 inch bolt also happen to match the common tapered lugnuts.
Tommorrow I plan to go to the trailer supply shop and buy the tires I have been eyeing (Been hopping to find a deal on some on Craigs List but all I find are old weather cracked for almost the price of new (NO THANKS!)
Once I have the tires I can measure the offset I need for my sprocket to clear the tire and go to Fastenal and just buy a bag of the bolts and the tapered lugnuts (I am low on lugnuts). I will also have to buy round stock to make spacers out of (Or have Doug make me some... If I could :-*) to space the sprocket out and it should be a bolt together affair once I find the sprocket set I need (been looking for that today on evilbay) Thinking #35 chain be strong enough.
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I was trying to say is have some custom studs made to suit your hub. I'm not sure what dia. your studs are. I found this pdf on highlifter.com's website. here is the pdf
Hope this clears up what I'm trying to say.
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Not sure where to get custom studs made but maybe an idea (Cost I wonder?). I will take a peek at the link there you posted. Its PDf and my dailup will load it but it will likely take me a bit. Thanks for it. It might shed a new light on it fer me.
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Here is a pic of the kit for my rubicon front disc conversion. Circled in red are the new studs for the disc conversion.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi293.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fmm73%2Fwyattboche%2Ffrontconversionkit.jpg&hash=21f959ad7a1d26c86db65e864189b0b71a20aecb)
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Not sure where to get custom studs made but maybe an idea (Cost I wonder?). I will take a peek at the link there you posted. Its PDf and my dailup will load it but it will likely take me a bit. Thanks for it. It might shed a new light on it fer me.
maybe the master him self Doug Heim mm:
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I was trying to say is have some custom studs made to suit your hub. I'm not sure what dia. your studs are. I found this pdf on highlifter.com's website. here is the pdf
Hope this clears up what I'm trying to say.
So basicly replace the disc rotor with a sprocket. Bolt the sprocket to the new studs that are pressed into the hubs. The only thing is trying to fiqure how long to make the new studs?
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Sorry took a bit to Dl the PDF file (You seem to have a much faster connection than my ripping dialup out there)
But yes those studs would be near PERFECT if I can get them in the right size! I will call High lifter products tomorrow to see if they have them in the diameter I am looking for to press into my hubs.
Don't think I did not think of asking Doug if he could ZAP something out. I thought about it more than once!
Heck If I KNEW the proper back spacing I need (I will not till I buy the tire know its precise measurement) I could have ones made that were the perfect length. But even if I need to space them I can live with that.
Thank you MUCH!
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Sorry took a bit to Dl the PDF file (You seem to have a much faster connection than my ripping dialup out there)
Ya we have cable dsl
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Nutz you ever fiqure it out?
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What about using ATV front hubs and making the sprockets bolt to the brake rotor mounts?
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Nutz you ever fiqure it out?
In at least three different ways that I have not made my mind up on yet. (I am HORRIBLE on this thing as I change my mind with the wind on how I wish to do it. Its killing me. But I cannot help myself.) I have added a lot to it that makes me change it as my plans were not really drawn out on this and kinda just fudged in my head. But I will say that its gonna be better than I imagined it would be (at least I think so! ;D )
I am currently awaiting the hubs for the wheelchair motors that will hold my upper drive sprockets. They have an odd shaft size and keyway (17mm shaft bore with 6mm keyway) I could do the bore but the keyways would be a bear. So I found some wheel chair hubs of steel that I can machine the outside on for my sprockets.
The motor mounts themselves have been changed no less than 20 times as I had went to MUCH larger wheels for some reasons that I HOPE to document soon when I get back (finally) to the build thread on it. (New job is (slowly) helping with cash flow but not time...) Also I could just mount the motor mounts solid but am STILL playing with ways to make the stay level while the suspension cycles. Maybe I should ask for ideas on here.....
In the wheelchair they stay level and the lube goes where it needs be. I have seen robotics guys mount them everywhich way with no issues it seems. So maybe me worrying about them staying level is just an inner paranoia? Maybe I just want it to do it to look cool? Hell I dunno.
As for the hubs and the studs this thread is really about I do have the spacer material that works perfect and need to buy the sprockets and do it up.
Still debating on if I wish to make them like Rick does with the countersunk taper head bolts/screws then just have studs for the tires.
Or if I wish to simply press out the stock hub studs and use the bolts I got for it that will go thru the rim/tire and then the hub and then the spacers and then finally the sprocket.
If I do this last way it will be eaiser to do and the whole deal will be bolted together then placed on the spindle in one piece/unit.
Ricks way would make it a little neater to take just the wheel off. But I hope I never have to do that.
The motor mounts are holding me up as I have one spot I can mount them solid with the bigger tires. Then nearly hit the hydraulic pump while up and almost kiss the air shocks when down. Not much room for chain adjustment. Which will be minimal over time but I want to be able to adjust it.
My options are to mount them at an steeper angle and not worry about them or figure a way to make them not tip and stay level (or leveler)
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What about using ATV front hubs and making the sprockets bolt to the brake rotor mounts?
Hmmmmm. Quite frankly had I thought of this I would have found some hubs that had a bolt pattern to match some tires that would support the weight and went with it.
I was looking all over tarnation for trailer brakes with discs for this (that were not a million dollars) but never once thought of ATV hubs.......
lol I wish I had gotton this idea from you or myself before..... :D But for now I will finsih it the way it is.
However another idea is on the way for another project and yours might get used on it.....!
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Drakart front hubs are based on a 4 on 4 trailer hub, but are aluminum with a rotor mount.