DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Chassis and Suspension => Topic started by: big dave on July 26, 2016, 12:36:56 PM
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Will I have started the motor swap. putting a turbo Subaru in. the back half of the car has been together for quit some time and it shows. found things I did not know was cracked out and some that I did. cutting it out and replacing it with new. this is just what I got done so far. Ya the down comers in the back do not match. but the starter his to fit in there to. take it easy on my welds.
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your going to enjoy the new motor! so does this mean your going to make the LS sept trip??
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SUbie vs VW,wonder who wins that? ;D Gonna be like a brand new car!!
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this is the set up I'm thank about running for cooling DSRACER
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the old Vw ran out good, it was far from stock. but I like the reliability of the Subaru. I thank the hp is going to be about the same. FABR. my vw was a 2332 cc the Subaru is a baby motor at 2.0 so I my loose some torque. but I could not pass, on the set up. the price was right. I got some of the welding out of the way last night. some look good, some look like they will hold. lol YA I'M NOT A WELDER. HA HA HA . but paint will help. and they will hold.
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You did have some serious cracks in the frame 5: Good to see you getting it fixed and a new engine. Where did you score the motor at? Does it have a turbo; looks like it? I have heard the 2.0 subi's have really good bottom end.
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRI-CORE-3-ROW-ALUMINUM-RADIATOR-2X-10-FAN-91-01-JEEP-CHEROKEE-COMANCHE-l4-l6-/171150772503?hash=item27d9618917:g:6sYAAOSwGWNUWQsd&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/TRI-CORE-3-ROW-ALUMINUM-RADIATOR-2X-10-FAN-91-01-JEEP-CHEROKEE-COMANCHE-l4-l6-/171150772503?hash=item27d9618917:g:6sYAAOSwGWNUWQsd&vxp=mtr)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASI-Aluminum-Radiator-SHROUD-3xFANS-FOR-1991-2001-Jeep-Cherokee-XJ-/282106698147?hash=item41aede99a3:g:ms4AAOSwARZXjuKf&vxp=mtr (http://www.ebay.com/itm/ASI-Aluminum-Radiator-SHROUD-3xFANS-FOR-1991-2001-Jeep-Cherokee-XJ-/282106698147?hash=item41aede99a3:g:ms4AAOSwARZXjuKf&vxp=mtr)
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this is the set up I'm thank about running for cooling DSRACER
For comparison, my radiator is 14 x 32 with 2 Spal 12" fans. The fans do run quite a bit, but I have never seen over 190 degrees.
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You did have some serious cracks in the frame 5: Good to see you getting it fixed and a new engine. Where did you score the motor at? Does it have a turbo; looks like it? I have heard the 2.0 subi's have really good bottom end.
One of the guys I ride with here, had bought it out of Arizona 3-4 year back. I would say it has 30 hours at best on it. but as it goes, he felt like he needed more HP, so he is up grading to v6 Buick supercharger motor. sold it to me for less them half of what he had in it. adaptor, ecu, wiring . all I have to come up with is the radiator and fual pump. Oh ya it is a WRX motor turbo. I just hope it runs as good as the VW did. lol
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question for fast and budlight 69....... on the 2.0 suby is there a stroker crank available? what is the stock comp ratio? fast you told me you put turbo heads on 2.5 motor in the green car before you sold it and that they really woke the engine up.....were those the turbo heads only used on the japan cars or what?
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One of the guys I ride with here, had bought it out of Arizona 3-4 year back. I would say it has 30 hours at best on it. but as it goes, he felt like he needed more HP, so he is up grading to v6 Buick supercharger motor. sold it to me for less them half of what he had in it. adaptor, ecu, wiring . all I have to come up with is the radiator and fual pump. Oh ya it is a WRX motor turbo. I just hope it runs as good as the VW did. lol
your geared better than he so i bet you'll be happy and if not then 2.5 it is lol
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For comparison, my radiator is 14 x 32 with 2 Spal 12" fans. The fans do run quite a bit, but I have never seen over 190 degrees.
the ecotec guys our running the Cherokee radiators on the 2.3. so I fell good about running it. in the Cherokee its cooling a 4.0 6 cylinder. my simple mind says it will work. ha ha ha You cant beat the price.
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question for fast and budlight 69....... on the 2.0 suby is there a stroker crank available? what is the stock comp ratio? fast you told me you put turbo heads on 2.5 motor in the green car before you sold it and that they really woke the engine up.....were those the turbo heads only used on the japan cars or what?
I don't know of a stroker crank. The stock comp ratio for a non-turbo engine 10.5:1. My JDM 2.5 was too high to turbo, I had to get another short block from outback.
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Don't know of any strock'er cranks for the 2.0's. Mite think about going with a interocular on it. Would greatly improve the life of the motor with a turbo. And put OutFronts phone number in your phone and assigne a speed dial number to it. LMAO
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FAST The intercooler is in the plan. thanking I will design it myself. outback makes a great product. BBBBUUUUTTTTT one in collage and one getting close to it,, makes me a tight ass. lol necessity is the mother of all invention. they say!! I made all the plumbing on the turbo VW so how hard could it be. 5: 5: 5: 5: 5:
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your geared better than he so i bet you'll be happy and if not then 2.5 it is lol
the goal would be the 2.5 down the road. by putting the 2.0 in the car first, it will be a easy swap later. just looking at Kims 2.5 compared to the 2.0, to me it appears that a lot of stuff will interchange. the polished stuff that is. do any of you have input on the interchangeability of the 2.5 / 2.0 external parts???
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FAST The intercooler is in the plan. thanking I will design it myself. outback makes a great product. BBBBUUUUTTTTT one in collage and one getting close to it,, makes me a tight ass. lol necessity is the mother of all invention. they say!! I made all the plumbing on the turbo VW so how hard could it be. 5: 5: 5: 5: 5:
I got the inter cooler you need and the best thing its cheap. ;D
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I got the inter cooler you need and the best thing its cheap. ;D
tell me more, tell me more, tell me more, I would love to see what you have.
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tell me more, tell me more, tell me more, I would love to see what you have.
Let me find the pictures.
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I don't know of a stroker crank. The stock comp ratio for a non-turbo engine 10.5:1. My JDM 2.5 was too high to turbo, I had to get another short block from outback.
so what is the ratio on the factory turbo motor? 8.5/1?
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tell me more, tell me more, tell me more, I would love to see what you have.
did it not use an innercooler stock? or were the 2.0's not factory turbo'd?
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did it not use an innercooler stock? or were the 2.0's not factory turbo'd?
I thank it should of had one stock. but you flip the exhaust around backwards so non of it works.
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so what is the ratio on the factory turbo motor? 8.5/1?
from what I've seen there is range of ratio 9.5/8.5/ 10/1. you need to know the car it came out of. that or take it down and cc it.
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Let me find the pictures.
that would be great. love to see them.
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looks like you nailed it down. 2003-2006 Legacy GT seems to be right. this matches the turbo. looks like 9-1.
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jeep buddy hooked me up today. he happened to have the radiator and fan seat up, that I've ordered. so I was able to fab it in place. new 3 core aluminum one should slip right in.
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how high are you going to run the boost ? only reason i ask is you might want to fab an external waste gate in while your doing all this. you can keep the internal as well just set it up as a back up or vise a versa. can't see if that turbo uses a stock suby flange or t3 or t4 flange. if it's a t3 or t4, then there are several bolt on mounts for external wg's that can be bought cheap, or weld on mounts. just a thought. i am not expert from but from what i have read on it, the internal works good for 10 psi and under.... but over that it can boost creep more than you think, where the external works better for 10 psi and over, yet doesn't seem to creep near as much as the internal. i am sure members with more experience will chime in but like i said just a thought while your at this stage.
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just an example
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-T3-Stainless-steel-304-TURBO-MANIFOLD-ADAPTER-38MM-WASTEGATE-FLANGE-OUTLE-/252383321270 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-T3-Stainless-steel-304-TURBO-MANIFOLD-ADAPTER-38MM-WASTEGATE-FLANGE-OUTLE-/252383321270)
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how high are you going to run the boost ? only reason i ask is you might want to fab an external waste gate in while your doing all this. you can keep the internal as well just set it up as a back up or vise a versa. can't see if that turbo uses a stock suby flange or t3 or t4 flange. if it's a t3 or t4 there are several bolt on mounts for external wg's that can be bought cheap. just a thought. i am not expert from what i have read on it the internal works good for 10 psi and under but over that it can boost creep where the external works better for 10 psi and over and doesn't seem to creep near as much as the internal. i am sure members with more experience will chime in but like i said just a thought while your at this stage.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What he said.
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just an example
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-T3-Stainless-steel-304-TURBO-MANIFOLD-ADAPTER-38MM-WASTEGATE-FLANGE-OUTLE-/252383321270 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/T3-T3-Stainless-steel-304-TURBO-MANIFOLD-ADAPTER-38MM-WASTEGATE-FLANGE-OUTLE-/252383321270)
it still uses the stock flange. I would need to weld on the t4 flange. the plan is to get it running. then start to play with the tune ,turbo and waste gate. I have all the stuff to put the t3/t4 on it. turbo, flange, waste gate, my CB proformanice ecu and injectors from the 2332Vw motor.
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sounds like you have a plan.......just a thought is all
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for the 2.3 i am building i wanted a ss manifold with the collector in stock location to re use the 3 bolt turbo support bracket ford built. i like the idea of supporting the turbo from below to ease the hit to the manifold. now no one offers a ss manifold with collector in stock location with an external wg port so i bought one like i posted but made out of ss so rather than bolt it on i am going to tig it on so no gasket needed lol the turbonectics stage 3 turbo i have has no internal wg and that is fine as i plan on 30 to 35 psi boost anyways with 120 lb to 135 lb inj's on e85.
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for the 2.3 i am building i wanted a ss manifold with the collector in stock location to re use the 3 bolt turbo support bracket ford built. i like the idea of supporting the turbo from below to ease the hit to the manifold. now no one offers a ss manifold with collector in stock location with an external wg port so i bought one like i posted but made out of ss so rather than bolt it on i am going to tig it on so no gasket needed lol the turbonectics stage 3 turbo i have has no internal wg and that is fine as i plan on 30 to 35 psi boost anyways with 120 lb to 135 lb inj's on e85.
jj: 3:
That's going to be bbbbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddddda$$$
I mite have to turn up the wick on my subi to stay behind you now Brian.
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no no no no don't turn yours up cause then i'll have to bore and stroke mine to a 3.0 ! rofl i am turning it up just so you can't pass me anymore on the south side LMAO LMAO however i know with a better ported head it can handle 45 psi ......for how long?????? but it can take it atleast three times or atleast bo's did lol lol it was the stock rods that let go in his lol
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Let me find the pictures.
you have any luck find pics of the intercool? Always looking for parts / ideas.
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the weekends work. new ECU, fuse, and relay box. altered the cage to clear turbo. left room to put on bigger turbo if needed. thanking about adding bars to the back on the side of the car. what do you guys thank?
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Oh and mounted the remount oil filter. Dam I need to find a inter cooler. The motor just don't look right with out one. lol.
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Where would you add bars? I could see a camberg clamp set up between the cross bars midpoint over the motor before the top cage for flex reasons, but where else could / would you put them?
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What is you plan for the intercooler since the radiator would be blowing hot air directly in to it with your current setup? I know Outfront told me to put a fan on mine to additional draw air across it. You could possibly mount it backwards with a fan. I have also seen side scoops to feed fresh air too. A buddy of mine did this on a customers car....
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just taking measurement's of my buddy's car. The scoop intake will be above the radiator. may need to add a deflector to direct the air down a little from the radiator. but with that being said, I do like the looks of this set up. I'm sure your buddy made the scoops. but I thank, I have seen some nice fiberglass ones out there.
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just taking measurement's of my buddy's car. The scoop intake will be above the radiator. may need to add a deflector to direct the air down a little from the radiator. but with that being said, I do like the looks of this set up. I'm sure your buddy made the scoops. but I thank, I have seen some nice fiberglass ones out there.
Sorry for the hold up on the pictures I'll get them on here this after noon for sure. Just been swamped trying to get ready for Idaho and lots of new work at the shop.
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Where would you add bars? I could see a camberg clamp set up between the cross bars midpoint over the motor before the top cage for flex reasons, but where else could / would you put them?
looking at img. 1701. I have tacked in a bars coming down the side, following the body line from the front of car. this adds a boxed area right in front of the bar. my thought is, will it help, to tie it into the upper cage, coming down the back of the car? i thank this is the same area your saying to x.
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Sorry for the hold up on the pictures I'll get them on here this after noon for sure. Just been swamped trying to get ready for Idaho and lots of new work at the shop.
Fast, as I like to say. sometimes life gets in the way of play. Take your time. If its meant to happen it will. thanks ;D ;D ;D
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yummy something like this??? the only problem I can see is it my interfere with a intercooler setup.
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Dave, good lines on the new tubes. It does tie in nice with the front. I say add em in
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looking at img. 1701. I have tacked in a bars coming down the side, following the body line from the front of car. this adds a boxed area right in front of the bar. my thought is, will it help, to tie it into the upper cage, coming down the back of the car? i thank this is the same area your saying to x.
Hmmm, I don't see as to where they add much other than to raise the belt line of the engine bay? Look good, but don't see any real benefit? Smart ones will chime in soon enough.
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yummy something like this??? the only problem I can see is it my interfere with a intercooler setup.
Hmmm... not what I was thinking. Yellow is camberg setup between bars, just for flex. You do have dead tube in green circle with a load path that does not appear to have much support, a possible solution via red line that is a lot of work. Other solution would be gusset and or plate at the purple area?
Like I say, smart ones will chime in soon enough.
Me? I am just mediocre with M.S. Paint.
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I think an x brace would do more and look beter too. And definitely fix that dead tube pointed out by Yummi
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Looks like a tube was cut under mid rail about where main hoop is? Wonder did that tie up to the dead tube?
I think planning for the I/C with layout now is smart, cause ya gonna wanna turn up boost soon to increase grin factor and ya gonna have to have cooler then.
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I'd chime in but am having a hard time telling what is what from the pics.
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There is a tie in that carries the load. you can see in white. I did have a gusset in the red location. I found that the trailing arm would hit it and limit my travel. Do we / you fill that the tube in white is not enough
support??
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OK Dave here's the inter-cooler. It's a heavy Brut but it should work for what you need. Sorry for the delay and best of all I'll only cost you 75$. Plus a little shipping unless you want to meet up with me half way between here and Goodland.
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There is a tie in that carries the load. you can see in white. I did have a gusset in the red location. I found that the trailing arm would hit it and limit my travel. Do we / you fill that the tube in white is not enough
support??
Photo angle is everything - did not see that one.
Fabr - click on pictures no worky?
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OK Dave here's the inter-cooler. It's a heavy Brut but it should work for what you need. Sorry for the delay and best of all I'll only cost you 75$. Plus a little shipping unless you want to meet up with me half way between here and Goodland.
Boy it looks huge. what are the measurements on it???? inlet, outlet and over all. not knowing much about intercoolers. I would thank on a air to air cooler bigger is better. I'm sure there is a point that it can be to big.
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Photo angle is everything - did not see that one.
Fabr - click on pictures no worky?
Three inch inlet and outlet. I'll get the rest tonight.
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There is a tie in that carries the load. you can see in white. I did have a gusset in the red location. I found that the trailing arm would hit it and limit my travel. Do we / you fill that the tube in white is not enough
support??
That's better,looks fine to me.
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There is a tie in that carries the load. you can see in white. I did have a gusset in the red location. I found that the trailing arm would hit it and limit my travel. Do we / you fill that the tube in white is not enough
support??
in this pic there is a red diagonal line turn that into a gusset and great. from the shock mounts heading back there are two tubes up and down....1 goes down to the bottom if your really worried about twist run the other down on both sides and a piece connecting them at the bottom and i would think the rest looks fine based on what can kind of see in the pics. just my opinion
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also anyone every get an up close look at the factory innercooler off a ford ecoboost engine?
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well got the paint on. time to put it back together.
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will this be done by a spring trip or fall trip to st a 2017????
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I'm going to say spring trip. 2017.i'm not trying to kill myself putting it back together. just letting it happen. but did get some done this last weekend. then I found these great looking bearings in my rock trucks Dana 60, so I'm fixing it first. lot less work to get it back on the road.
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That buggy is looking good. We'll see you next spring then..........
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Bearings are looking---------------"great?" WOW! Buggy will be sweet!
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the buggy is coming along. thanks for the vote of confidence with it. I'm liking the way its coming together so far. just need to round up some more parts. ya I was really surprised to see the bearings in the rock truck. I traded a VW bug for it about a year ago and have just been wheeling it. I traded for it out of Tennessee it must have spent its life in the mud and lakes down south. nice thing is the deferential was clean. no signs of rust. so the next step is tear into the 14 bolt corporate in the back and hope for the best.
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Well, I have received some more parts. hoping to have it fired up by the end of the month. did run into one little problem. looks like, I need to move the rear cage some. but that is part of the fun, of this hobby right?? lol rofl
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Could ya flip the turbo around? Looks like its at an angle that may put back into cage. But may introduce other problems with the charge lines to cooler?
Looking good. I got to get busy on mine.....
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Could ya flip the turbo around? Looks like its at an angle that may put back into cage. But may introduce other problems with the charge lines to cooler?
Looking good. I got to get busy on mine.....
flipping it was the first thing I tried. but no luck it hits the alternator pulley then. not sure what the plain is yet. I'm thanking I will just cut and lengthen the cage.
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Hey Dave, I had the same problem. I did flip the turbo around, slightly bent the rear bars, then made a new bracket to put the alternator on the drivers side. But I see your radiator line runs thru there; may not work like mine. Not a good pic but it shows it. Keep after it man!
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lets see if i can put my idea into words lol,,,,look at budlights pic...pull turbo and bolt cross bar back on......bend a tube like in budlights pic and weld it to the ends of you cross bar......once that is done cut the original tube 1" in from the edges of the welds that weld the new one on. now take a 1.5" hole saw and make to end caps and weld the old cross tube ends shut and paint.!! wallah plenty of clearance now you won't have to worry about strength if you are'nt trying to get an additonal 6" or so back there. 2-4" i think you would be just fine. land on your ass end in a wheelie stance & no you won't be fine lol
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Hey Dave, I had the same problem. I did flip the turbo around, slightly bent the rear bars, then made a new bracket to put the alternator on the drivers side. But I see your radiator line runs thru there; may not work like mine. Not a good pic but it shows it. Keep after it man!
do you run a outback header??? the hot side of the turbo hits my alternator pulley. another thought I've had, is to build a small t3 flange adapter to tilt the turbo up and in closer to the motor.
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the wedge shaped flange welded on would work as long as you get your oil drained straight up and down again?
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lets see if i can put my idea into words lol,,,,look at budlights pic...pull turbo and bolt cross bar back on......bend a tube like in budlights pic and weld it to the ends of you cross bar......once that is done cut the original tube 1" in from the edges of the welds that weld the new one on. now take a 1.5" hole saw and make to end caps and weld the old cross tube ends shut and paint.!! wallah plenty of clearance now you won't have to worry about strength if you are'nt trying to get an additonal 6" or so back there. 2-4" i think you would be just fine. land on your ass end in a wheelie stance you no you won't be fine lol
I see what your saying. but the big problem is there is no room for the air filter. the bars that go down and under the car from the rear cage, will be running right in front of the air intake of the turbo. leaving about one inch of clearance.
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the wedge shaped flange welded on would work as long as you get your oil drained straight up and down again?
at this point I thank the wedge is the best bet. next step build it.
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do you run a outback header??? the hot side of the turbo hits my alternator pulley. another thought I've had, is to build a small t3 flange adapter to tilt the turbo up and in closer to the motor.
Yes, it is outback. They also make a header which moves the turbo in closer, my buddy used one. It came with a heat shield to protect the plastic. The wedge might be a great/cheap option.
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well it fits know! turned the turbo around. I had to build a small spool/flange adapter. gives me a good inch of clearance from the alternator. I like the way it fits in tight. I will be ordering a insulated turbo cover to keep the heat of the alternator.
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had some fun last weekend. making a scoop, for the intercooler. so far I liking the way it is coming along.
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Nice. I want to push my scoop up higher too.
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Nice. I want to push my scoop up higher too.
looks like yours is moving along well. hope to fire mine next month. the center fan is going to be blowing right on the scoop. so I made that section about 3/8 of inch thick hoping for some insulation value. time will tell if the cooling system likes it. 5: 5:
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Really nice to see others doing F/G work. Looking good.
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Really nice to see others doing F/G work. Looking good.
so far I'm happy with it. I forgot, how much of a mess,
body work can be. put it on, sand it off. repeat
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repeat,repeat,repeat,repeat and on and on and on...............................lol
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looks really good big dave i believe you'll have no excuse not to ride with us in the spring ;D ;D or at st a in aug again ;D ;D
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or at the river in the spring!
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fired it up this weekend. started right up. just a few little things to do, then off to the tuners. been way to long. I need some sand time. giggity giggity
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congrats but really there was never a doubt ;D ;) ;)
post the dyno sheet if you would?? it would be nice to see where tq comes in and when boost starts.
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congrats but really there was never a doubt ;D ;) ;)
post the dyno sheet if you would?? it would be nice to see where tq comes in and when boost starts.
I sure will. when I get it done.
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What are your expectations and plans for the tune? Race fuel?
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What are your expectations and plans for the tune? Race fuel?
My only goal at this point is to see 300hp. really don't want more then that, just because of the tranny. my thought is get a base line. than go from there. more boost, better fuel. e85 / or 110.????? I put a t3/t4 turbo on it. the motor had the factory turbo, when I got it. I'm sure the tune will need adjusted to the turbo. tuning to the turbo is my first step. PUNKUR67 You had a 2.0 is there anything you can add? to ease my pain. tip/tricks/ WORDS OF WISDOM. AKA. been there done that...... so on.
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I ran 17 pounds of boost on 100 octane and it did 268hp to the tires. After my conversations with John at Outfront motorsports he said with a 2.0 those numbers were a little high and most likely closer to that power at the crank. The dyno guys can make adjustments to make the numbers look good but are not true power. You will definitely need to run E85 or race fuel to get that high. I can tell you my car was like driving a 2 stroke. If the motor fell off the turbo I had to downshift. But my car is a little heavy and was geared more for the dirt too
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Who is doing the tune for you Dave? Make sure they don't push it too lean. Some guys that tune street cars worry me. They just don't understand the constant, hard load these take in the dunes.
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Who is doing the tune for you Dave? Make sure they don't push it too lean. Some guys that tune street cars worry me. They just don't understand the constant, hard load these take in the dunes.
Chris at Wichita Dyno is the plan. I have not made contact with him yet. hoping after the first of the year sometime.
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DO YOU SEE WHATS WRONG??? GIVE YOU A HINT..LOOK AT THE RADIATOR 5: 5: 5: 5: 5: 5:
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ONE MORE PIC, DO YOU SEE IT???? 5: 5: 5: 5: 5: 5: 5:
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well not knowing where you water pump is i don't know if its plumbed backwards but otherwise i don't see any holes but looks like something made a mess on the floor
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well not knowing where you water pump is i don't know if its plumbed backwards but otherwise i don't see any holes but looks like something made a mess on the floor
I thank it"s plumed backwards. what a b!tch. I can move the water neck down on the passenger side, put the fill cap were the hose was on passage side. then move the driver side up to the old fill spot. this is the best idea I have came up with so far. BUT...... I'm thanking about just lowering the one on the passenger side down, half way on the radiator. this would keep some cross flow. the radiator is way oversized. coming off a 6 cylinder motor. and would save some fab work. what's your thoughts???
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i've always believed you don't want the fill neck on the inlet side. can you turn the return neck on top of the motor towards the bell housing under the plenum? that would aim you forward and easier to get to the top rt inlet port. the pump end.....well damn that's buried down there lol no great way to do that one.
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that radiator is set up for mid engine.....better way to go so yank that motor and flip that trans ;D
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that radiator is set up for mid engine.....better way to go so yank that motor and flip that trans ;D
WELL. OK. LET THE FUN START. HA HA HA . I thank rearranging the inlet and outlet on the radiator is the plan. i could leave the fill neck ware it is and just mount the return right under it.
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what is the amp draw on each of those fans?
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You can flip the water crossover under the intake and leave the top radiator connection where it is. Then relocate the lower connection on the radiator. Hard to see but here is how mine is.
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I love it when working tired, under deadline, or :swig: LOL. I got 6-8 pieces of tube for some racks I'm building, all notched perfect- 90* to way they needed to be!!
I'd say DS is right, Subie should be mid engine with that water pump location! If ya have room to move tubes up/down wo messing with fan shroud too much prob easier. Looking good!!!
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It makes absolutely no difference whether the radiator return is at the top or bottom of radiator.
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so explain?? i know it can be done either or but getting the system to bleed has always been much easier in what most/I call the correct way. i do now from what i have read that the cap is preffered to be on the outlet side for safety.
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Thanks for all the info guys. After thanking it over, this is the plan good bad or ugly. I'm going for it. I will get it all welded up next week. Pic. show it better then words. in my case anyway. basically, I just re-plumed the inlets and outlets and the fill cap. lol lol lol lol lol lol
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so explain?? i know it can be done either or but getting the system to bleed has always been much easier in what most/I call the correct way. i do now from what i have read that the cap is preffered to be on the outlet side for safety.
Water can flow top to bottom or bottom to top,makes no difference in cooling. My new car is set up to flow from bottom to top to simplify routing. C&R confirmed it makes no difference before I had radiator made.
The radiator cap should be on the low pressure side of the radiator to prevent high pressure coolant overpowering the cap causing a loss of coolant at high rpm if located on the high pressure side of the radiator. Low pressure side of radiator is the side after water leaves the engine and is headed back to radiator. Most people don't know there is a high pressure side and a low pressure side.
Unless I'm totally misunderstanding what is in question and what is being described,the only thing needing relocated is the filler neck.
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the problem was. that the pump would not pick up the water. with the radiator layed back. it would not flood the suction line to the pump. in high sight, it sounds like I my have been able to just drop the return line down on the radiator. but now all the cutting and fab is done. so on with it. thanks for all the info. Fab And DSrace. you to punker67
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what is the amp draw on each of those fans?
Good question ??? I need to put a amp clamp on them and see. the fans on the radiator have no spec's on them. china made, I'm sure. as for the intercooler. I need to look at it. I live by the golden rule.. It will be fine. Ha ha ha ha . At this time I have two fans per relay. this my need to be changed. but will be easily done. the big thing is, I need to delay, one set on. with all four coming on at one time. it will drop the rpm's down 200rpms.
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Good question ??? I need to put a amp clamp on them and see. the fans on the radiator have no spec's on them. china made, I'm sure. as for the intercooler. I need to look at it. I live by the golden rule.. It will be fine. Ha ha ha ha . At this time I have two fans per relay. this my need to be changed. but will be easily done. the big thing is, I need to delay, one set on. with all four coming on at one time. it will drop the rpm's down 200rpms.
DAMN!!!
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DAMN!!!
ok 200 rpm maybe a stretch. lol but dam it sounds like it.
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Maybe the ass end lifting 6" off the ground when they kick on has something to do with it . rofl
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Think its a new electric turbo, probably good for 50hp!!
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I'm designing it like a air boat. wind power, the new age way to go. lol lol
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LMAO
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Have you drove the car at all?
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Have you drove the car at all?
I have, Just around the block. taking it to the tuner Friday. he is new to the area, so I'm going to give him a try. if he does not work out, then its a three hour drive to the next tuner. I will post results of tune.
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Did you get on it at all? And how did you like the power if you did?
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Did you get on it at all? And how did you like the power if you did?
to be honest,, I was a little let down by the power. compered to the old vw motor. But it is still set a 7 psi of boost.
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Hopefully a good tune will cure the disappointment.
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to be honest,, I was a little let down by the power. compered to the old vw motor. But it is still set a 7 psi of boost.
With a lighter car like yours and a good tune that thing will be a rocket. My 2.0 was quick in my heavy car. It just did not have the torque i wanted for how big my car was
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will the dyno run, a some weak spots. aka the clutch. I used my old clutch and presser plate from the vw. looked good and felt good with the vw. but slipped when boost comes in, on dyno. So parts on order. the local dyno guy, was have problems with the tach on his dyno. so no real good numbers on the run. 100 hp was peck but as boost would come in it would flat line right there. I'm sure these numbers will be better when the car is right. motor sound good and strong. new flywheel clutch and pressure plate will be in Thursday. guess, I know what I'm doing this weekend.
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I had a new cush lock and KEP stage 3 on my 2.0 and it was not enough clutch. First drive down the street the clutch went up in smoke when I hit the throttle hard. Talked to the shop who built the motor and they recommended a 6 puck clutch with a stage 2 or 3 pressure plate. I never had issue after that.
The new motor has a dual disk clutch but those are spendy!
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I had a new cush lock and KEP stage 3 on my 2.0 and it was not enough clutch. First drive down the street the clutch went up in smoke when I hit the throttle hard. Talked to the shop who built the motor and they recommended a 6 puck clutch with a stage 2 or 3 pressure plate. I never had issue after that.
The new motor has a dual disk clutch but those are spendy!
that's what I ordered. 6 puck and stage 3. I was running a 4 puck on a stage 3 before. I must of smoked it out in Idaho. it had some hot spots. but looked like it would be ok. oh well it happens.
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Had a cush lock clutch once, more Cush than lock. Smoked it first trip with turbo VW. 6 puck now with stage 2. Is the stage 3 hard to push in? Not sure if my old knee would like it?
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i just purchased a dual disc with stage 2 press plate. kep says good to 525 ft lbs in an 8" flywheel. expensive but full circle with cush center and softest pedal!!
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Had a cush lock clutch once, more Cush than lock. Smoked it first trip with turbo VW. 6 puck now with stage 2. Is the stage 3 hard to push in? Not sure if my old knee would like it?
Not hard at all if you have a hydraulic slave. Cable operated is a whole different story
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and thats why i went dual disc lol i bet once you get that engine tuned you will be pleased!
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what is the amp draw on each of those fans?
I can finally answer this question for you. the fans on the radiator carry 6 amp each and the one on the intercooler is 5 amps. the car running with fans on is 34 amps at the alternator. stock alternator is good for 85 amps. I'm running two fans per 20 amp relay. it should all be good.
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The new motor has a dual disk clutch but those are spendy!
I am running one in my short star. Ran it for 13 years and had to change transmissions up in Idaho. I sent it in to Kennedy and the clutch has only worn down 10 thousands. They said run it. I could have made another spacer they said and made it 10 thousands thicker but he said no need.
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I am running one in my short star. Ran it for 13 years and had to change transmissions up in Idaho. I sent it in to Kennedy and the clutch has only worn down 10 thousands. They said run it. I could have made another spacer they said and made it 10 thousands thicker but he said no need.
what is Kennedys rebuild plan. I have 3 old clutches. I have been thanking about sending in, but was not sure it was worth the time.
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It is cheaper to rebuild I heard. Call and have them give you a price.
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Any updates bigdave?
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Well,,, long story short, I found that my injectors were to small for the boost I want. so I'm putting my old injection system on the car. I should have did this from the start. but was being hard headed about using the ecu and wiring that came with the motor. this past weekend, I and friends were able to finish up the engine cage. I had to widen the fuel rails to fit the Subaru motor as well. and build some bushing for the intake runners to the new injectors. hope to rewire the thing next weekend.
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I just pulled a set of billet fuel rails off my motor this weekend if you are interested.
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I just pulled a set of billet fuel rails off my motor this weekend if you are interested.
I would of said yes, last Monday. but know, I've already cut the vw ones up. So I will be using them. but just incase. what would you need for them?
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Pm sent
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finally off to Wichita dyno on Friday . I decided to just leave the motor at 10 psi of boost and run it on 112 fuel. time will tell what this 2.0 will give me. I will post the numbers when its done. that is if it stays together. 5: 5: 5:
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You'll need to go 6 cyl subi with all that downforce. ;) ;) ;D
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Hope it all goes good
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You'll need to go 6 cyl subi with all that downforce. ;) ;) ;D
this thing is going to be so fast. the wing is the only thing that is going to keep the back tires on the ground. LMAO
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Hope it all goes good
I'm sure it will be fine. the first dyno run, with the local guy took out the clutch. but it had a lot of play time on it.
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what fuel pump are you running? what is it rated for.....255lph or 320 lph or 340 lph or 450 lph??
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and what size inj's?
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what fuel pump are you running? what is it rated for.....255lph or 320 lph or 340 lph or 450 lph??
this is what I'm running for pump. https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/7315t.htm
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and what size inj's?
INJECTORS https://www.cbperformance.com/product-p/7399.htm
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so 52 lb injectors and 300 lph fuel pump as long as you have 3/8" id to 1/2" fuel line your more than capable of supporting 20 ish psi on race fuel. that's if the motor internals will handle it. it's a low ohm peak and hold inj. i say this because the stock inj off the turbo 2.3 were 39 pph ( lb per hour) and with the right octane they support 20 psi.
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FWIW,most people think fuel lines need to be large. Huge myth. Ever looked at the ID of the fuel pump inlet?
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I have a -8 inlet to my pump and -6 to the motor on my motor
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How big are the internal pump passages? Unless running some monster ,"race style",the internal passages are rather small.
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How big are the internal pump passages? Unless running some monster ,"race style",the internal passages are rather small.
If you were asking me the pump has a connection to push on a 1/2" hose (-8) that is part of the housing that can not be changed.
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the walbor 450 e85 pump i selected/oredered has an 10mm or 3/8" inlet outlet ID according to there site. i don't have it yet but should this week to view personally. now ....the 130lb inj's i purchased for e85 require a bit more flow than pump gas or race fuel. hence the larger pump but if i reduced that down to 5/16" to the motor i would reduce flow a bit. how much....i would have to test that and don't have the equipment but no matter what if the outlet is 3/8" i will step up to 1/2" from there to the motor. it's an in tank pump. now bo ....scott smiths friend, he was having fueling issues and stepped up from 3/8" to 1/2" and problem solved. the other issue that i do not know if it was fixed at the same time is that he was using to filters. a 60 micron and a 40 micron pre and post pump. small bodied aem filters. if he canged those at the same time that could've been his restriction point. i don't think he did though. i know he has changed them to a single 10 micron post filter like i and enemy run from fast systems. speedway sells them locally. 4 models, 250 - 300 gph flow rate at 10 and 4 micron ratings, screw on filters the size of an oil filter similar to one on the gm 3.8 series II engines or gm 5.7 v8 engine.
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If you were asking me the pump has a connection to push on a 1/2" hose (-8) that is part of the housing that can not be changed.
What I was getting at was most people today are using walbro or similar pumps. They may have larger connections but the inlet and outlet internal passages are actually pretty small. In the old days of low pressure carburetor systems we needed 1/2 or even larger to supply an adequate fuel supply. With EFI and much higher pressures ,the line sizes can and frequently are,much smaller. The days of needing huge pumps and lines are gone. Still ,many people will run large lines unnecessarily. I was not saying you were.
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the walbor 450 e85 pump i selected/oredered has an 10mm or 3/8" inlet outlet ID according to there site. i don't have it yet but should this week to view personally. now ....the 130lb inj's i purchased for e85 require a bit more flow than pump gas or race fuel. hence the larger pump but if i reduced that down to 5/16" to the motor i would reduce flow a bit. how much....i would have to test that and don't have the equipment but no matter what if the outlet is 3/8" i will step up to 1/2" from there to the motor.Many people do but is not needed.It won't hurt anything but is truly not needed. it's an in tank pump. now bo ....scott smiths friend, he was having fueling issues and stepped up from 3/8" to 1/2" and problem solved. the other issue that i do not know if it was fixed at the same time is that he was using to filters. a 60 micron and a 40 micron pre and post pump. small bodied aem filters. if he canged those at the same time that could've been his restriction point.Bingo and too many transition fittings also restrict flow. MANY fittings have much smaller passages as well. Many times it's the AN fittings restricting flow and not line size but larger hose size is necessary to allow the fitting ID to be at least 3/8" which is plenty.Choose your AN fittings carefully and large lines aren't really needed at all. i don't think he did though. i know he has changed them to a single 10 micron post filter like i and enemy run from fast systems. speedway sells them locally. 4 models, 250 - 300 gph flow rate at 10 and 4 micron ratings, screw on filters the size of an oil filter similar to one on the gm 3.8 series II engines or gm 5.7 v8 engine.
The Fast TBI I'm using,rated at 1200 hp max with it's 8 injectors only use 2,-6 inlets and I am using 1,1/2" feed line with a 3/8 return with around 700 HP on e85 but is still plenty big enough to feed 1200 hp on gas. Bottom line is ,use full bore size fittings and larger filters with reasonable size hoses is all that is needed.
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What I was getting at was most people today are using walbro or similar pumps. They may have larger connections but the inlet and outlet internal passages are actually pretty small. In the old days of low pressure carburetor systems we needed 1/2 or even larger to supply an adequate fuel supply. With EFI and much higher pressures ,the line sizes can and frequently are,much smaller. The days of needing huge pumps and lines are gone. Still ,many people will run large lines unnecessarily. I was not saying you were.
Gotcha.
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here is what the little engine, has in her, on the dyno. the car sure runs a lot better with the bigger injectors. have to put it in the sand to see if its as much as the old VW had. BOY,,,, CAN I SEE A 2.5 IN THE FUTURE. This one will work for some ride time.
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here is what the little engine, has in her, on the dyno. the car sure runs a lot better with the bigger injectors. have to put it in the sand to see if its as much as the old VW had. BOY,,,, CAN I SEE A 2.5 IN THE FUTURE. This one will work for some ride time.
The cool thing it going to a 2.5 is an easy swap (as long as the trans can handle the power)
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The cool thing it going to a 2.5 is an easy swap (as long as the trans can handle the power)
Ya, that was always the plan. in the back of my mind. the price was right on the 2.0. all I need is time!!! oh ya and lots of money. lol. its time to play the 2.0 will make for a good time this year.
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That it will!
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You will love the pull of the 2.0 when the turbo kicks in. I was looking at the graph, and thought it said 120 mph, wow. But it was kph. Are you heading down to lil Sahara in early May with us?
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You will love the pull of the 2.0 when the turbo kicks in. I was looking at the graph, and thought it said 120 mph, wow. But it was kph. Are you heading down to lil Sahara in early May with us?
if all goes well. yes
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did he give you a print out you can post that graphs rpm?
i hope to make an early may trip but that will be a last min trip for me. my daughter get married this weekend and the rail is back on it's wheels but motor is still not together. and won't be able to work on it this weekend ...not with out a lot of hell to pay anyway lol
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did he give you a print out you can post that graphs rpm?
i hope to make an early may trip but that will be a last min trip for me. my daughter get married this weekend and the rail is back on it's wheels but motor is still not together. and won't be able to work on it this weekend ...not with out a lot of hell to pay anyway lol
No he did not give me a print out. but then aging I did not ask. hope you can make it in may.
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You will love the pull of the 2.0 when the turbo kicks in. I was looking at the graph, and thought it said 120 mph, wow. But it was kph. Are you heading down to lil Sahara in early May with us?
were is the group camping at. the dates ????
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well i hope i can too lol and not sure of the dates. i think sandracer1 picked them but his other daughter is due to deliver his new grandchild on those dates so hes not going now.
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were is the group camping at. the dates ????
I am Cowboy camp along with a few others. Fabr is at Duece's. My dates there are 5/2 thru 5/6, heading home Sunday.
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I am Cowboy camp along with a few others. Fabr is at Duece's. My dates there are 5/2 thru 5/6, heading home Sunday.
Ok thanks I need to get a sight reserved.
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Ya,I'm @ Dueces in spot 14 Tues-Fri. Arrive Tues,leaving Saturday.
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Well,, I test ran the car in the sand. pulled hard in all four gear to 7000rpm. I will say, it is lacking in the low end. but when the boost comes in, its time to hold on and hit the next gear. I'm not sure, if I lost a vacuum line or what! but all of a sudden it limits the rpms to 3000rpm. it has temp. protection on warm up and over temp. but I do not thank it is this. I let the car cool down for a few hours and it is still limiting it to 3000rpm. I have not looked at the vacuum/ boost reference lines yet. but it seem like it is limiting it, right as I start making boost. any thought??
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Well,, I test ran the car in the sand. pulled hard in all four gear to 7000rpm. I will say, it is lacking in the low end. but when the boost comes in, its time to hold on and hit the next gear. I'm not sure, if I lost a vacuum line or what! but all of a sudden it limits the rpms to 3000rpm. it has temp. protection on warm up and over temp. but I do not thank it is this. I let the car cool down for a few hours and it is still limiting it to 3000rpm. I have not looked at the vacuum/ boost reference lines yet. but it seem like it is limiting it, right as I start making boost. any thought??
I had to drive my 2.0 like a 2 stroke. You will learn to throttle before you hit a hill or incline to build boost.
What plug gap do you have? I had that same issue with mine when I first got it and it was just plugs. I change mine every season and keep plenty handy. If the gap is too big the turbo will blow the spark out. I set mine to .025.
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I had to drive my 2.0 like a 2 stroke. You will learn to throttle before you hit a hill or incline to build boost.
What plug gap do you have? I had that same issue with mine when I first got it and it was just plugs. I change mine every season and keep plenty handy. If the gap is too big the turbo will blow the spark out. I set mine to .025.
New plugs ( NKG R5671A-7 ) put in at the dyno. internet said out of the box .032gap. looks like I my try regaping them. factory said .025.
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I had to drive my 2.0 like a 2 stroke. You will learn to throttle before you hit a hill or incline to build boost.
What plug gap do you have? I had that same issue with mine when I first got it and it was just plugs. I change mine every season and keep plenty handy. If the gap is too big the turbo will blow the spark out. I set mine to .025.
what did you run for plugs????
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New plugs ( NKG R5671A-7 ) put in at the dyno. internet said out of the box .032gap. looks like I my try regaping them. factory said .025.
I put a fresh set in my new motor at .035 out of the box. They ran great all weekend and on my last ride would not rev over 4k. I threw fresh plugs in at .025 in when I got home and ran perfect. I was running NGK but now run standard Autolite plugs per recommendation from a local builder. The Autolite is copper core and has a shorter ground electrode that makes it more square to the positive electrode.
I will get the numbers tonight. And I ALWAYS check plug gaps cause they are not always correct out of the box.
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I put a fresh set in my new motor at .035 out of the box. They ran great all weekend and on my last ride would not rev over 4k. I threw fresh plugs in at .025 in when I got home and ran perfect. I was running NGK but now run standard Autolite plugs per recommendation from a local builder. The Autolite is copper core and has a shorter ground electrode that makes it more square to the positive electrode.
I will get the numbers tonight. And I ALWAYS check plug gaps cause they are not always correct out of the box.
I'M WITH YOU ON CHECKING THE PLUG GAP, OUT OF THE BOX. BUT, I DID NOT WANT TO STEP ON THE TUNERS TOES. WE HAD ALLREADY HAD A FEW HEATED WORDS, BY THIS POINT. BUT THIS IS GOOD TO HERE. IT WILL BE THE FIRST THING I TRY. THANKS FOR THE INPUT. NOT YELLING. I HAVE TO TYPE EVRYTHING IN CAPS AT WORK. ITS A HARD HABBIT TO BREAK. LOL I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT PLUG YOUR RUNING NOW WHEN YOU HAVE TIME.
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I'M WITH YOU ON CHECKING THE PLUG GAP, OUT OF THE BOX. BUT, I DID NOT WANT TO STEP ON THE TUNERS TOES. WE HAD ALLREADY HAD A FEW HEATED WORDS, BY THIS POINT. BUT THIS IS GOOD TO HERE. IT WILL BE THE FIRST THING I TRY. THANKS FOR THE INPUT. NOT YELLING. I HAVE TO TYPE EVRYTHING IN CAPS AT WORK. ITS A HARD HABBIT TO BREAK. LOL I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT PLUG YOUR RUNING NOW WHEN YOU HAVE TIME.
I was running ngk ZFR7F-11. I am now running autolite 3992
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John from Outfront made a post on GD about plugs and gap on his motors. He was quite picky about it and said boosted tuned motor were too. See if I can find info.................
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http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?/forums/topic/301856-spark-plugs-for-subaru-ej20-20-turbo/#comment-4615082 (http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?/forums/topic/301856-spark-plugs-for-subaru-ej20-20-turbo/#comment-4615082)
In case ya just want to read here
John:I never use iridium nor platinum on my engines, these plugs are designed to go 50k miles in a street car at near 14.7 to 1 AFR, they can last there like that. when they are in a dune buggy with a lot
richer tune they could foul and not recover. go with the copper NGK that have been recommended.
sometimes cheaper is better!!!
Esco said:
azcg said:
Getting ready to change the plugs in my stock Subie 2.0 turbo running 6 psi of boost on 91 octane.
Many of the Subaru forums vary about what's best. NGK BKR6EIX (Iridium) or NGK BKR6-11 (Copper) NGK PFR6G (Platinum) seem the most common. But there's also talk of using one range colder NGK BKR7.
What are other members experience with their 2.0 motors?
I use these in mine NGK-ZFR6F-11 Copper core V power
I also use the NGK-ZFR6F-11, gap to 0.020 replace every season.
The plugs come pre-gapped to 0.030 or so, so you have bend the tip down a lot to get 0.020 and the tip will not be parallel with the electrode.
You can try gapping to 0.025 or 0.030. When gapped that big I got miss fires under boast, felt like a rev limiter at higher RPMs.
The gap gets wider with use, so gap to 0.020 now and at the end of the season it will be bigger. Keeping running them and it will misfire under boost.
Sounds like your description.
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http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?/forums/topic/301856-spark-plugs-for-subaru-ej20-20-turbo/#comment-4615082 (http://www.glamisdunes.com/invision/index.php?/forums/topic/301856-spark-plugs-for-subaru-ej20-20-turbo/#comment-4615082)
In case ya just want to read here
John:I never use iridium nor platinum on my engines, these plugs are designed to go 50k miles in a street car at near 14.7 to 1 AFR, they can last there like that. when they are in a dune buggy with a lot
richer tune they could foul and not recover. go with the copper NGK that have been recommended.
sometimes cheaper is better!!!
Esco said:
azcg said:
Getting ready to change the plugs in my stock Subie 2.0 turbo running 6 psi of boost on 91 octane.
Many of the Subaru forums vary about what's best. NGK BKR6EIX (Iridium) or NGK BKR6-11 (Copper) NGK PFR6G (Platinum) seem the most common. But there's also talk of using one range colder NGK BKR7.
What are other members experience with their 2.0 motors?
I use these in mine NGK-ZFR6F-11 Copper core V power
I also use the NGK-ZFR6F-11, gap to 0.020 replace every season.
The plugs come pre-gapped to 0.030 or so, so you have bend the tip down a lot to get 0.020 and the tip will not be parallel with the electrode.
You can try gapping to 0.025 or 0.030. When gapped that big I got miss fires under boast, felt like a rev limiter at higher RPMs.
The gap gets wider with use, so gap to 0.020 now and at the end of the season it will be bigger. Keeping running them and it will misfire under boost.
Sounds like your description.
thanks for the info. great read. I tried to regap them last night. this has not fixed the problem. looking at the ecu program. it is defiantly setting a rpm limit. . ecu gives me a fault code. but I have not found in the parameters or setting, anything that should be limiting it at 3800-4000 rpm. there are some rpm limit seat from temp. but I do not believe it is based off of temp, as I can see these limits clear as temp. is reached in the motor. oh the fun of it lol. best I can tell it is setting a bit. that is now being held.(aka rpm limit) time to dig in to the tuning config. more.
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i know you said you tried re gapping but did you try a new set gapped correctly for you boost level? the old ones my be damaged internally at this point.
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i know you said you tried re gapping but did you try a new set gapped correctly for you boost level? the old ones my be damaged internally at this point.
no, I did not try know ones. for no more then they cost I will give it a shot. But at this point its in the ecu. in my mind. for what that's worth. rofl I can clear the faults in the ecu. aka RPM limit. when car is running, I hit the gas and it brings the fault back after reaching 3800 RPM. it looks to me like the ecu has set the limit. but it does not have a reset function.
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i am not why your pcm does what it does unless its sensing misfires or dead plugs and defaulting. ,???
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or the plug is damaged enough that at 3800 it doesnt through a hot enough or any spark and\or boost is blowing it out. easy test is fresh plugs gapped at 25 or your liking.
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or the plug is damaged enough that at 3800 it doesnt through a hot enough or any spark and\or boost is blowing it out. easy test is fresh plugs gapped at 25 or your liking.
I do agree I will be putting the new plugs in. set at .25. I just cant convene myself it could be that easy. 5: 5: 5:
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Honestly,it can very well be that simple. BTDT. Every once in a while I would have my dragster run fine and on next start up run like crap. New set or freshly bead blasted plugs and all would be fine instantly. Under higher than average cylinder pressures an engine can be very finicky about the least little thing.
Many ,many years ago I rebuilt a 400 Ford gas engine in an over the road tractor. Thing would run like a striped ass ape until you hooked a trailer up to it and it couldn't pull away from a stop without back firing and just plain falling on it's face. We screwed with that thing every possible,checked everything several times including plug gap. We just could not find out what the hell was going on. An older mechanic in the shop said to close the plug gap .010 tighter. VIOLA!!!! The SOB ran perfect and would continue to run perfect other than needing new tight gapped plugs about every 10K miles. Some engines are just picky ass bastards.
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x2 on the copper NGK plugs - Outfront says: ZFR6F-11 gapped to .025
What ECU are you running? Can you access it see the data settings?
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interesting read
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348637 (http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348637)
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x2 on the copper NGK plugs - Outfront says: ZFR6F-11 gapped to .025
What ECU are you running? Can you access it see the data settings?
It is a links atom system. i can see all data and make adjustment if need. but that is part of the mystery. no were in the config files, can i found a limit set at 3800Rpm . plug are cheap. i ordered replacement to try them new out of the box. gaped to .25. ngk r5671a-7 is what Cris at Wichita dyno put in. but hearing what outfront runs, i will get some of them coming as well.
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interesting read
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348637 (http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348637)
good bit of info thanks for the link
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this is about ford 2.3 but still intersting about plugs. stinger admin is the owner and very knowledgeable on the 2.3 engines.
http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/2059 (http://stinger-performance.proboards.com/thread/2059)
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is this where your ecu come from?? http://www.linkecu.com/products/plugin-ecus/subaru/
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is this where your ecu come from?? http://www.linkecu.com/products/plugin-ecus/subaru/
well it came with the motor. ha ha. but yes this is the vender. it is a older unit called the atom . it is not the g4 plus. I have sent some running logged data. as well as my running program, to a venders to take a look at it. I have talked with the guy on line a lot, asking questions and he as been a great help. the time difference makes it a bit of a slow go . the parts store in town, happen to have the plugs in stock that Outfront uses so I will give them a shot tonight.
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Does it rev to 3800 nice and crisp and then start crapping out or does it run sluggish to 3800 and then just fall completely on its' face?
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pic of ecu unit
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Does it rev to 3800 nice and crisp and then start crapping out or does it run sluggish to 3800 and then just fall completely on its' face?
runs crisp then craps out at 3800rpm. and by craping out I mean. it cuts off like a line launch limit.
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then it's 95% certain it's not the plugs. I'd still put in a new set though just to rule it out. From your original post I assume it does this driving and not just free revving?
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then it's 95% certain it's not the plugs. I'd still put in a new set though just to rule it out. From your original post I assume it does this driving and not just free revving?
I can see the confusion. It does this just setting in the shop in neutral. that is why, I keep looking to the ecu programing. playing with logging function last night. I was look at all the input signal and running data. my BTDC signal looks a little flaky, (jumps around a lot). I did rewire it when I installed the motor. I my have a connection problem there. The rpm issue came on after, I had drove the car in the sand hard and fast. everything was working great. pulled all 4 gears 7000rpm. played for maybe 20 min. I shut the car off and let it cool down. fried it back up and took off 1,2nd pulled hard 6000 rpm hit 3rd and it started to limit to 3800. now it seem to be stuck there.
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with a new system, have you checked all the fuel filters for plugging up with loose stuff?
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is the crank sensor loose? or is the connector have problems? i would still install a new set of plugs but i would think the ecu would keep you from revving to rev limit in N but only if it knows your in N. if it does not then it cannot. does this engine have a distributor?
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for grins and giggles check and see if you maf is still connected
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I also had a fuel pump go bad that pumped enough to run but not over about 5k rpm. It would only build about 5psi max on a fuel injected motor
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That funky BTDC signal does concern me a lot. I'd start there and also check the basics as well. Check one thing at a time though. First find the issue with the BTDC signal. Next verify fuel pressure and investigate all filters. Check connections to all sensors and the sensors themselves. Next ohm check all other connections if possible by back probing the terminals. All grounds should be checked the same way as well.
I'd bet it's the funky BTDC issue though. Have you put a timing light on it? I assume it is triggered with a magnetic pick up? Check to see if there is any metal stuck to it if so. Have you done any drilling on the car while getting it back together? I've seen a few very small drill shavings cause all kinds of mischief.
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problem found. looks like I have a flaky cam position sensor. it works on start up. but flacks out around 3800. by watching the logging tables. I finally seen the rpms spike up tp 10000 rpm. unplugged sensor with car running and it comes right up to 7000 rpm. as always parts on order. giggity giggity thanks for all the input on solving this guy.
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problem found. looks like I have a flaky cam position sensor. it works on start up. but flacks out around 3800. by watching the logging tables. I finally seen the rpms spike up tp 10000 rpm. unplugged sensor with car running and it comes right up to 7000 rpm. as always parts on order. giggity giggity thanks for all the input on solving this guy.
Good news. I have heard of cam sensors going put, but they usually just won't run at all. Zip tie the wires going to the sensors really well,to avoid vibration and future problems.
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:swig:
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Nice when its simple
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Dang, sounds like a 7.3 ford diesel. I think everyone keep a spare in glove box. LOL
Glad was relative simple find and easy fix.
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hope you found it cheaper at the rock vs local parts store. you'll have to look to see if something did indeed strike it or it just went out.
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well the new cam sensor fixed it. ran like a champ sitting in the shop. then I went and test drove the car. 2 minuets in and right back to limiting the RPM. unplugged the sensor car ran great. after remove the sensor, the dam thing has a rub on it. its not much of a rub. looks like just a small scratch, you can just fell it with your finger nail. my best guess, at this time. is there most be some play in the cam or the wheel is damaged. I will be ordering a new sensor. then its time to take the timing belt covers off and have a closer look at it.
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well,that sux. You say you unplugged the CS and it ran????????
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well,that sux. You say you unplugged the CS and it ran????????
yes, it needs to be plugged in to start. then unplugged after the car is running. then the car runs fine.
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Interesting situation...
Just to throw this out there, some cam and crank sensors are polarity sensitive. I have seen first hand of sync errors and rev limiting from one being wired backwards, or having the pickup "edge" being configured incorrectly in the ecu software.
Hope ya get it figured out!
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Interesting situation...
Just to throw this out there, some cam and crank sensors are polarity sensitive. I have seen first hand of sync errors and rev limiting from one being wired backwards, or having the pickup "edge" being configured incorrectly in the ecu software.
Hope ya get it figured out!
I did rewire it. there is a small chance. I crossed them. but I believe. I only unhooked one wire it a time. to rewire it. give me more information about edge. how is this configuration in the ecu. what will I be looking for? I can see the input config for both the cam and crank.
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my guess is since it's running good until it's struck then i would say it's good. when i told you to unplug the cam sensor while it was running the other night before you found the issue. you said that worked and that it looked like it had been struck by something. not all but some use a roll pin on cams for the sensor. something is coming loose at rpm, how deep is the groove?.
fabr most cars will run if the cam sensor fails it just goes into limp mode. crank sensor goes and they die right now.
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my guess is since it's running good until it's struck then i would say it's good. when i told you to unplug the cam sensor while it was running the other night before you found the issue. you said that worked and that it looked like it had been struck by something. not all but some use a roll pin on cams for the sensor. something is coming loose at rpm, how deep is the groove?.
fabr most cars will run if the cam sensor fails it just goes into limp mode. crank sensor goes and they die right now.
its not much of a rub. looks like just a small scratch, you can just, fell it with your finger nail. a may try and put a shim under it. looking through the cam sensor hole it looks good. but I'm removing the timing belt covers to night to get a better look at it.
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Damn gremlins!. Some sensors come with shims. Factory sensor or aftermarket?
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well take pics cause i'm interested to see whats in there that can move. the 94.5 to03 PSD cam/crank sensor does come with shims like carl says.
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I did rewire it. there is a small chance. I crossed them. but I believe. I only unhooked one wire it a time. to rewire it. give me more information about edge. how is this configuration in the ecu. what will I be looking for? I can see the input config for both the cam and crank.
You would be looking for something like "Ignition Input Capture"
"Rising Edge" or "Falling edge" is how Tuner Studio and AEM label it in their programs.
If set incorrectly you can experience timing drift with RPMs or misdetection of teeth on a missing tooth wheel causing limp mode or failure to rev.
But since you already had this build running good, I'm guessing this is not your issue
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Damn gremlins!. Some sensors come with shims. Factory sensor or aftermarket?
oem I believe.
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Just figured I would give a update on my car. not a dam thing is happening on it. LMAO. still fighting the trigger gremlin. I decided, I should step back and take a break from it. regroup. so to speck. then my oldest kids clutch went out on her Honda civic. so.... ya you guessed it. I have been playing Honda mechanic. all the parts should be in this week. oh ya in the middle of all this 3 weeks ago we had a hail storm. so the truck, I just bought. 5 mouths ago. got hammered. I hate dealing with the insurance company. their Dam sure a legal mafia. You have to pay them! but try and get some money out of them. 5: 5: 5: I hope to get back to the car in a few weeks. the big hold up right now is. I need two scopes to see my trigger signal at the same time so the ECU provider can tell me what is happening. I have one scope. the second scope I found, has been sent off for repairs. I hope to see it return this week. I hope to get some answers then. I have been considering putting the old fuel rails and injectors back on the motor. then dumping the old tune back in the ECU. This would be the tune it had before, I took it to the tuner. to see if it was the tuner or something else . this all started the first run out after I put the new injectors on it and had it tuned. well that is the update!!!!!! HOPE TO GET TO PLAY SOMETIME SOON.
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that sucks on rail....i thought you had it figured out. so what kind of truck? pics?
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well,that certainly sux all around.
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Are you and Kim planning on coming to Idaho this year?
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Are you and Kim planning on coming to Idaho this year?
I don't see it in my future. I cant speak for Kim. I'm sure he would love to. hit him up.
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to anyone that knows the suby motors. A.......is the crank timing gear keyed on or bolted on? B..........are there adjustable timing gears available for cams ? as in to get the engine set with cams at a true 0 at tdc
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so big dave.......when it acts like it hits the rev limiter, does it spit and pop a tiny bit like rev limiter mixed with small miss or tiny back fire? also, in your ecm.......is there a setting for auto or manual trans? if so is the gear based map selection? if so could it be stuck in N map?
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the craziest part is its didnt do it when you unhooked the cam sensor. but then after running it a while with cam sensor unplugged it started doing it again. so it ran better in limp mode but then it must have re learned or its a mechanical issue and its coming apart or your timing belt jumped a tooth. just my thoughts
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so big dave.......when it acts like it hits the rev limiter, does it spit and pop a tiny bit like rev limiter mixed with small miss or tiny back fire? also, in your ecm.......is there a setting for auto or manual trans? if so is the gear based map selection? if so could it be stuck in N map?
The ECU sets a rev, limit. It will flag that in the fault codes. it pop and cracks. there is no auto/manual trans. function in the Ecu
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if it pops and cracks a bit when it hits that rev limit , i bet your timing belt slipped a tooth or 2.
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thats what sucks about belts vs timing chains. turn that motor backwards by accident and you run the risk of jumping a tooth.
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the craziest part is its didnt do it when you unhooked the cam sensor. but then after running it a while with cam sensor unplugged it started doing it again. so it ran better in limp mode but then it must have re learned or its a mechanical issue and its coming apart or your timing belt jumped a tooth. just my thoughts
This is why I don't suspect a slipped tooth. If it was a slipped tooth it wouldn't run better in limp mode even for a moment.
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that's what sucks about belts vs timing chains. turn that motor backwards by accident and you run the risk of jumping a tooth.
I assume a subi belt is hydraulically tensioned? If so,don't you guys replace it with a manual tensioner for performance applications?
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I assume a subi belt is hydraulically tensioned? If so,don't you guys replace it with a manual tensioner for performance applications?
I run the stock hydraulic tensioner, it is pretty stout, but I did add a part from outback that limits the space round the belt, so it makes it hard to jump a tooth.
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This is why I don't suspect a slipped tooth. If it was a slipped tooth it wouldn't run better in limp mode even for a moment.
i would tend to agree, however , big dave did replace the timing belt i believe before he fired the motor off for the first time. that link ecu requires he teach it the timing of the motor so he had to sinq it with the crank sensor on set up before he started it. if it skipped a tooth that could be as a possiblilty.
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i would tend to agree, however , big dave did replace the timing belt i believe before he fired the motor off for the first time. that link ecu requires he teach it the timing of the motor so he had to sinq it with the crank sensor on set up before he started it. if it skipped a tooth that could be as a possiblilty.
It would never run right if there was a skipped tooth. Never.
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It does sound like the cam sensor is involved somehow.Whether it is the sensor itself or perhaps electrical noise in the harness causing the issue. Is the cam sensor wire ran anywhere close to a plug wire/coil/parallel with other wiring? I know noise is a big ,big issue with efi.
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well he did say this motor has never had the power he hoped for. so like that busa motor i had......it was off 1 tooth and made it run like a dog. eventually it started sort of back firing out the intake on decel. always started always ran just ran like i had an anchor hanging out the back. but good question on cam wiring next to coil wires or coil. also brings up another question........is your ecu case grounded? i drilled a hole in my case and soldered a wire into it then ran that to batt ground. mine was built to be held in a metal bracket that was grounded to the car chassis. i cannot do the same in my trunck....instead i used velcro which helps reduce vibration too.
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thanks for all the feed back on this problem. I have replaced both the cam and crank sensors. the sensing wires run away from all coil and plug wires. the sensor wires do run in a common harness back to the ecm. I tested all ground with ohm meter thy seem to be fine. I found at first, if I unplugged the cam sensor after staring the motor it would run to 6500 rpm. Sooooo. I had to go play!!!. ran it two days on the sand, with a switch on the cam sensor. switching the cam sensor off, after start up it would run ok. The 3rd day it would stay in the rev limit status. with the switch in ether position. I have not looked at it since then. I needed a break. that or it was a can of gas and a flame thrower. giggity Sarcasm.
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thanks for all the feed back on this problem. I have replaced both the cam and crank sensors. the sensing wires run away from all coil and plug wires. the sensor wires do run in a common harness back to the ecm. I tested all ground with ohm meter thy seem to be fine. I found at first, if I unplugged the cam sensor after staring the motor it would run to 6500 rpm. Sooooo. I had to go play!!!. ran it two days on the sand, with a switch on the cam sensor. switching the cam sensor off, after start up it would run ok. The 3rd day it would stay in the rev limit status. with the switch in ether position. I have not looked at it since then. I needed a break. that or it was a can of gas and a flame thrower. giggity Sarcasm.
Are they ran parallel to each other or as twisted pairs? I know they need to be twisted pairs or bad stuff can happen. I don't know if any of this is related to your rpm limiting though.Do I recall you saying the ecm reads out a set 3800 rpm limit or that is all it will rev to?
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this is a shot in the dark but have you by chance checked your throttle pos senser (tps)? i only ask because if it was way off and was telling the ecu you were wot at half throttle....maybe?? the odd part that still sets me back to mechanical timing is the cracking and popping when it hits this ghost rev limit.
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Check the timing belt first.
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Are they ran parallel to each other or as twisted pairs? I know they need to be twisted pairs or bad stuff can happen. I don't know if any of this is related to your rpm limiting though.Do I recall you saying the ecm reads out a set 3800 rpm limit or that is all it will rev to?
just to be safe. I ran new wire all the back to the ecm. twisted pair shielded wire. grounded the shields at the ecm. no change. I will be looking at timing belt next. as for the tps. it has always looked rock solid on all the trends I have ran on it and cal. position fine.
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Check the timing belt first.
It sounds like the next step.
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all good possibilities but i'm still leaning toward mechanical timing screwing up electrical timing.
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if the belt looks good, you should give John @ Outfront a call. 5 minutes and he might get you right to the issue. He is very helpful, even if you haven't bought any parts from him!
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if the belt looks good, you should give John @ Outfront a call. 5 minutes and he might get you right to the issue. He is very helpful, even if you haven't bought any parts from him!
I did buy all the intercooler set up from him. he was very help at that time. I hate to give up on this ecu. but thought has crossed my mind, just to buy one out right from john. time will tell. one thing I have is time.
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soooo????
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soooo????
well ya. still the same. just can't seem to find the time and will power lately!!. its been to hot out in the shop. 95 - 104 for the last two weeks. desk job has softened me up. I cant take the heat anymore.
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well ya. still the same. just can't seem to find the time and will power lately!!. its been to hot out in the shop. 95 - 104 for the last two weeks. desk job has softened me up. I cant take the heat anymore.
this is why my garage/shop has air conditioning and i keep it set at 74* while i am out there. even on a 100* day as long as i turn it on by 8 am it will keep it 74* in there and the comp will cycle on and off like it should. costs me $40 more per month ( in the real hot months ) on electric bill to run it that way!
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My shop is heated and cooled 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. I'd never build a thing if it weren't.
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Dam I'm going to have to step up my game. giggity
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i have a wall unit that is heat and air. small hotel or largest home unit lol i have a wood stove for the winter as well. hell its usually warmer out there than in the house lol
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Good news. weather was in the 80s this weekend. so out to the shop I went. I finally conceded to the thought that the tune was the problem. I dumped the old tune back in the ecu. NO more 3800 rpm limiting. took the car for a river run Sunday. it will pull 4th gear know. and come up on boost. never limited at 3800 rpm. it still needs a little tuning but at this point I feel it can at least play. it still does not make the power of my old vw turbo. but I thank with some tweaking on the tune it will be real close to it. happy happy happy.
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Very cool. Glad to hear.
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well glad to hear! wonder what he did in the tune that did that? must have a safety turned on? well the timing map is prob safe for current tune so an 02 sensor and you can get that correct and safe.
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well glad to hear! wonder what he did in the tune that did that? must have a safety turned on? well the timing map is prob safe for current tune so an 02 sensor and you can get that correct and safe.
yes, I do agree. lambo will be add next to the link ecm. on to the next step.
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the dyno shop you used is the one by fast that he and jerry have used?
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the dyno shop you used is the one by fast that he and jerry have used?
That is correct. not sure what went wrong. I can say, he was have a bad day. He did not seem to have his hart in it that day. I'm not bad mouthing the guy. but he had to call someone serval times for help when he was tuning the car. I'm sure he is good at what he does. it just did not work out this time. We all have been around long enough to realize some times sh!t just happens.
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well i get it and your right everyone has a bad day here and there. i would call and talk to him about it. maybe he has an idea what could've happened there. it's like it lost sinc with the cam sensor.....