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Automotive Powered Off Road (AKA: Buggys, Jeeps, Trucks, Etc,Etc. ) => "AP" General Discusion => Topic started by: Baloo on July 16, 2018, 02:09:54 PM

Title: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 16, 2018, 02:09:54 PM
hello boys how you all doing over there

I have a hankering for a 2 seat  buggy preferably with a car engine and box, maybe a vw golf since they are common and cheap and have a huge range of power out puts form mild to wild

but you don't see many based on car components, was looking for inspiration or ideas really

anyone got any links to builds of buggies with car engines that have turned out well ?

Andy
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 16, 2018, 07:00:59 PM
Good to hear from you again baloo. Always like seeing your unique projects. BTW,how did the last one go?  WHen you say buggy,what do you mean? Our definition of buggy ,I think,is different from yours.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 16, 2018, 11:54:31 PM
hi

the last one stalled, I think,  I cant even remember what I was building lol,
I guess buggy means lots of different things to different people
over here I think anything made tube would be called a buggy, like the Chinese ones


I have been given a vw golf for free so that's a convenient start point, 
I can see why everyone your side of the pond chases long travel suspension with all those dunes to play in
but we don't have anything remotely like that to play on,
I imagine using macpherson struts all round is probably going to be frowned upon  but I don't think I need 14" of wheel travel don't know what I can get out of standard vw suspension but I am willing to try it and see
vw rally cars seem to manage to be robust enough like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC7i2GRDvDg


my definition of a buggy  is something like this
a collection of tubes with an engine in there somewhere

(https://s19.postimg.cc/hzjzgf4ib/tube_buggy.png) (https://postimages.org/)
I
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 17, 2018, 06:02:30 AM
Cool! Yes,I agree ,you don't need or even want long travel for that type of fun. Do you have numbers on how much travel the donor vw golf has stock?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Yummi on July 17, 2018, 07:03:24 AM
hello boys how you all doing over there

I have a hankering for a 2 seat  buggy preferably with a car engine and box, maybe a vw golf since they are common and cheap and have a huge range of power out puts form mild to wild

but you don't see many based on car components, was looking for inspiration or ideas really

anyone got any links to builds of buggies with car engines that have turned out well ?

Andy

Sometimes the answer you seek is in your own back yard.  Well, maybe around the corner and down the path, but still without a passport. 

http://www.arielmotor.co.uk/nomad/overview/

(https://s15.postimg.cc/b7vnv35cn/nomad1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/b7vnv35cn/)



(https://s15.postimg.cc/jq53zhoqv/nomad_Rear.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/jq53zhoqv/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 17, 2018, 07:39:33 AM
Cool for sure. I was/am amazed that the nomad is bronze welded chassis. WTH is up with that? I mean for MX bicycles I would be OK with it but on a car????? A car destined for hard usage????? Someone enlighten me WHY would that be the choice of joining structural members on an off road car.  Also,it is using ERW tube. Strong enough but it's mostly accepted practice here to use 1018 DOM or better for a variety of reasons but ERW is plenty strong,IMO.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 17, 2018, 09:08:03 AM
well that's pretty cool, and just up the road
I quite like that but its not going to be cheap at all
but nice non the less
I can use it for inspiration but wont be raiding my piggy bank to place an order just yet lol

mine needs to be golf based as I was given a golf for free, tight arse I know want to see if I can build something worthwhile for $1000  LMAO

here's what I was given  and they say you should never look a gift horse in the mouth, right

(https://s19.postimg.cc/44rdul9jn/IMG_20180516_182905.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/aiggxuefj/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/czs853qmb/IMG_20180518_141830.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6m351ulq7/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 17, 2018, 09:33:39 AM
It's a bit coincidental but I have recently bought 3 Yamaha YXZ's . I have been toying with the idea of using most ,if not all,the drivetrain/engine/suspension from a donor on a project like you are considering. I have imagined a rally car type buggy. We have a lot of new,old stock availability here in the US. A brand new 2016 can be had for around 14K US dollars. There are also a lot of wrecked ones here. Something you might consider. Here is an article  link to the YXZ in the UK.  https://www.bennetts.co.uk/bikesocial/reviews/bikes/yamaha/full-crash-test-yamahas-amazing-yxz1000r
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 17, 2018, 01:29:07 PM
now they look fun but still pretty pricey  over 20k

so although the golf looked pretty desperate its very low mileage and cleaned up well

(https://s19.postimg.cc/cn0tytsw3/IMG_20180520_134650_1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hlocdcwov/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/44rduioyb/IMG_20180520_135916.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4ua66vphr/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/571kd1cwj/IMG_20180520_151611.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5jsyj7v67/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/4ua66tzrn/IMG_20180520_161915.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/m7kglov2n/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/q3xshsayb/IMG_20180520_161254.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4his0rcdr/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 17, 2018, 01:32:27 PM
Was thinking you might find one totalled and be able to get it cheap with all the goodies needed to build. May not many in the UK though like here.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 17, 2018, 01:43:57 PM
they are rare over here think I would have more chance of knitting fog than finding a cheap one
but it would make sense if I could find one, you have much cheaper stuff over there I think
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 17, 2018, 02:46:53 PM
Knitting fog  :m :m now that is funny!! I suppose it would cost a fortune to ship a basket case one from here as well.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: DeepBusch69 on July 17, 2018, 03:21:55 PM
What did you use to clean the engine up so nice? 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 07:38:30 AM
What did you use to clean the engine up so nice?


Diesel !!!!


a trick I learnt back when I was knee high to a grass hopper  :m

if you spill diesel anywhere like in the back of your truck it has this ability to creep every where and get under everything, so what I do is spray the engine with diesel out of a garden spray bottle and leave it for a day or 2 to soak in   then when you steam clean it the dirt/grim almost jumps off of its own accord
well it comes off easier anyway  :)
I did the v6 golf with it the other day , shiney  8)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/g5lfan7b7/DSC00382.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/swzlh5h33/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 07:47:13 AM
Knitting fog  :m :m now that is funny!! I suppose it would cost a fortune to ship a basket case one from here as well.

 I bet it would cost a fortune  to ship over indeed

I need a sump for a cummins 555 engine and I found one over there but shipping was over $500 for a $100 sump
rather killed it lol

but I do think your right one of those would make the basis of an excellent buggy
but I have half an idea about retiring soon and will need something to do, so was thinking that if I can design a frame that accepts mk 4 golf or beetle ( new shape) as its a mk 4 platform running gear  then I might be able to sell a few, golfs are so cheap over here, probably are over there to ?


if i was to use an YXZ  as a base i would be limiting my market considerably and driving the price up massively
that's not to say I wouldn't build one for my self if one happened along at the right price 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2018, 09:21:12 AM
what happened to the beach buggy project that i think you cut up a pt cruiser or something then had to cut and widen a fiberglass body??
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 09:48:54 AM
what happened to the beach buggy project that i think you cut up a pt cruiser or something then had to cut and widen a fiberglass body??

that's on the shelf with a label on it that says "finish when retired "   LMAO
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2018, 10:17:01 AM
stop it lol what put the brakes on that project?? there's your buggy build right there.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 11:34:13 AM
I needed the space in the workshop for work stuff so the buggy went upstairs  in the hay loft
I will get back on it but for now I feel like l need to bend some tube and melt some metal
and besides I am a bit further on with this than the pics show  ;)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 11:39:48 AM
so I stripped the golf slowly and methodically removing the whole wiring loom without cutting any wires,
 what a mission


(https://s19.postimg.cc/3wvzfvdkz/IMG_20180522_183621.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hdsxyqnwf/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/9fzwj49z7/IMG_20180524_201631.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/e1w0rgvi7/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/yemv4ue5v/IMG_20180525_155345.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/p6umo573j/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/vyqluxgdv/IMG_20180603_125958.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/faz3sflm7/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 11:42:57 AM
engine stand so I can run it up before it goes in the buggy

(https://s19.postimg.cc/3tahbwwcj/IMG_20180604_181152.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/cobbmfl4v/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/wixd8kfs3/IMG_20180604_181936.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/5xuud0den/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/bm153vmw3/IMG_20180604_181209.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/xxyxx9lzz/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Yummi on July 18, 2018, 12:07:00 PM
Cool for sure. I was/am amazed that the nomad is bronze welded chassis. WTH is up with that? I mean for MX bicycles I would be OK with it but on a car?????

Arn't bikes brazed? Maybe with the ERW pipe and the bronze welded they have a different design philosophy?  They want some flex in the chassis and this is the way to do it with out cracked welds?  Counter intuitive as everybody talks "rigidity" but there might be a method to the madness?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 18, 2018, 12:16:53 PM
I gotta agree with you on that. I did do a search for salvage stuff in the UK but ,nope,nothing came up.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 12:24:16 PM
I gotta agree with you on that. I did do a search for salvage stuff in the UK but ,nope,nothing came up.

nope,   will be rarer than a Politian speaking the truth over here
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 18, 2018, 12:27:51 PM
Cool for sure. I was/am amazed that the nomad is bronze welded chassis. WTH is up with that? I mean for MX bicycles I would be OK with it but on a car?????

Arn't bikes brazed? Maybe with the ERW pipe and the bronze welded they have a different design philosophy?  They want some flex in the chassis and this is the way to do it with out cracked welds?  Counter intuitive as everybody talks "rigidity" but there might be a method to the madness?
I know the theory but IMO,it's not for any use where structural integrity is the most important criteria. Most bikes today are tigged as well. The brazed joint is not a welded joint even though they call it welded. It is a much weaker joining method. Probably up to the task,I mean ,haven't you seen the ads for flex tape?  :m
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 18, 2018, 12:31:07 PM
I gotta agree with you on that. I did do a search for salvage stuff in the UK but ,nope,nothing came up.

nope,   will be rarer than a Politian speaking the truth over here
Well,at least we finally got a bluntly honest,for the most part,President here.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 18, 2018, 12:40:40 PM
he's over here at the moment isent he
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Yummi on July 18, 2018, 12:40:58 PM
I know the theory but IMO,it's not for any use where structural integrity is the most important criteria. Most bikes today are tigged as well. The brazed joint is not a welded joint even though they call it welded. It is a much weaker joining method. Probably up to the task,I mean ,haven't you seen the ads for flex tape?  :m

Well, because I am me, I sent them an email and asked why (always curious - non confrontational in the least) so hope to get a response?  We will see if they get back to me?   
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 18, 2018, 12:55:05 PM
I know the theory but IMO,it's not for any use where structural integrity is the most important criteria. Most bikes today are tigged as well. The brazed joint is not a welded joint even though they call it welded. It is a much weaker joining method. Probably up to the task,I mean ,haven't you seen the ads for flex tape?  :m

Well, because I am me, I sent them an email and asked why (always curious - non confrontational in the least) so hope to get a response?  We will see if they get back to me?
I suppose you did see the suspension arms are tigged?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on July 18, 2018, 01:46:20 PM
motor sure cleaned up nice.

fabr i don't know why they would braze any structural tube member together. must be missing something or there's a mixture in that rod ????
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Yummi on July 18, 2018, 01:53:22 PM
I suppose you did see the suspension arms are tigged?

I just asked re: Chassis.  Hope they respond.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Yummi on July 19, 2018, 06:09:19 AM
I just asked re: Chassis.  Hope they respond.

And they did.  Not a lot of detail, but some insight. 

Quote
Good Morning Jeffrey,

We use bronze welding because it has very slight flex in it as you say. It also induces less localised heat in the tubes, increasing strength.

Regards
 
Henry
 
Henry Siebert-Saunders
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 19, 2018, 06:52:08 AM
so I finished stripping the golf down as far as I could, decided for the time being I would use the golf front subframe in the back and another up front


(https://s19.postimg.cc/9uivr5icz/IMG_20180621_181752_(1).jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/psrlhackv/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 19, 2018, 06:57:35 AM
that gives me the position for the wishbone pick up points but not the strut tops
so

weld a couple of discs in the suspension tops to give me a 12mm hole like thus

(https://s19.postimg.cc/4htpsppf7/DSC00414.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6z5gzz9bj/)

and use these to capture the position for the strut top

(https://s19.postimg.cc/ymi6e1zn7/DSC00418.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/9gh877ycv/)

wheelbase is set at 2100mm which is the shortest I could fit into with legs out straight

(https://s19.postimg.cc/fhex4ad9f/DSC00419.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/6z5gzy6qn/)

base layer will have to be 2" box section for now but I am treating this as a prototype and will make another after ironing out all my mistakes lol

(https://s19.postimg.cc/jrtkzc7wj/DSC00425.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/g87n9j56n/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 19, 2018, 07:03:55 AM
onto the work bench and I can see where the suspension tops need to be
just need to copy over the engine mounting position in the same way  and I can get rid of the old body shell I keep tripping over

(https://s19.postimg.cc/46c9fd8sz/DSC00428.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fvg93bzrj/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 19, 2018, 09:24:19 AM
I just asked re: Chassis.  Hope they respond.

And they did.  Not a lot of detail, but some insight. 

Quote
Good Morning Jeffrey,

We use bronze welding because it has very slight flex in it as you say.I have brazed a lot of things in my fabbing life and I would only use brazing on sheetmetal ,never in a structural application . Yes,I an agree that it allows a very small amount of flex but it is that flex that will allow the bronze or brass filler to fail much sooner than a weld. It also induces less localised heat in the tubes, increasing strength. Reading between the lines of that they are saying that less skilled welders are needed to assembly the frame. They are using thin wall tubing that can ,with a lesser skilled laborer,induce way too much heat into the weld creating a much larger HAZ(heat affected zone) that is not a good thing.

Regards
 
Henry
 
Henry Siebert-Saunders
There is a reason the suspension is tigged. Plain and simple it is because it is the much stronger joining practice. Lots of new cars are using sil bronze brazing on sheetmetal bodies/built up structures as is used in unibodies and it is a better method than welding or spot welding of thin sheetmetal for that application. 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 19, 2018, 09:28:42 AM
onto the work bench and I can see where the suspension tops need to be
just need to copy over the engine mounting position in the same way  and I can get rid of the old body shell I keep tripping over

(https://s19.postimg.cc/46c9fd8sz/DSC00428.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fvg93bzrj/)
Back to your topic,baloo,it looks like you have a good game plan . I'm really interested in the results. I had envisioned a slightly longer wheel base for high speed stability. That brings up the question of what is your anticipated speed range for this project.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 19, 2018, 12:25:43 PM
speed range, well probably not that fast  I was never a racing driver I think about what could go wrong to much lol
don't think I will be the high side of 60 very often at all,  the only place I have to ride is my track which is tight and twisty  so was aiming for a short wheelbase to make it turn quick and be nimble,  will be registered for road use as well so  that's when it will see the higher speeds I guess

i see this as a prototype and making a revised version staright after this, a second golf has found its way to me via ebay already
just couldent say no to a VR6 4wd version for $300, looking to evealuate the first one which is an 1800cc turbo  the audi 20v engine against the second one which is 2.8 normaly asperated ( for the moment )  should be an intereesting comparison  and of course it will be 4wd

(https://s19.postimg.cc/izoko31rn/DSC00383.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/803dchbcf/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 21, 2018, 12:24:30 PM
found a bit of time to work on the buggy first job was to copy over the engine mounting positions

(https://s19.postimg.cc/bu4oeipoz/IMG_20180719_120607.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/4e5esq1zj/)


(https://s19.postimg.cc/6ap9uweoz/DSC00451.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/wvrsqgh27/)

then I needed to work out how to bolt the golf subframes into my chassis

(https://s19.postimg.cc/nb863jhfn/DSC00452.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/esypz7awv/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/d15r4bepf/DSC00456.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/ljf78nl7z/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/b9cs9gdcz/DSC00461.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/nb863lmlb/)


(https://s19.postimg.cc/ddx5ak9ur/DSC00466.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/464wtv2sf/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/awle3aair/DSC00473.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/hn1vcpxof/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/qi2pn69lf/DSC00458.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/q5bbgzrbj/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 21, 2018, 12:25:29 PM
pics went a bit out of order but you get the jist of it
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 21, 2018, 04:26:07 PM
OK baloo,ya got me. What is the splined shaft through the green panel? Steering shaft? 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 21, 2018, 11:54:03 PM
yep its the steering column coming through the floor.

I still see this as a prototype chassis one to use to see how to do it better, like that steering shaft nice neat hole in the floor which should have a rubber grommet to seal out the water BUT when I fit the uj its right where the floor is so I will have to have a much bigger hole that hard to seal
the floor should have been an inch higher or lower but of course I didn't know that till after I had made that bit lol
I am not a great designer from scratch but I can take something that exists and improve on it, like everyone probably,


also the front floor looks a bit odd as its curved upwards, this is where the pedals are going to have to be so they might be a bit higher than normal, I thought that might feel a bit odd with your feet up higher but I just looked at how racing drivers sit, they seem to manage

(https://s19.postimg.cc/hg699mr9f/08d3491a92d66efd5f1b167921068b76.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

like I say I might finish this frame hang all the bits on it then step back and see what needs tweaking to make it better 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 22, 2018, 08:47:01 AM
You have my interest/attention.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on July 23, 2018, 03:42:58 PM
i like the shell emblem in the pic.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 24, 2018, 11:56:37 AM
Won't that seating position be a bit,wellllll,uncomfortable off road.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 24, 2018, 01:08:31 PM
Won't that seating position be a bit,wellllll,uncomfortable off road.

I think your right it would be, but its not as serve as that in real life, I just sat in the frame and my legs are straight out not up hill, think it will be fine
the subframe mounting pionts  are almost finished

(https://s19.postimg.cc/z8atkvr9v/DSC00483.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/3oksasl3j/)

(https://s19.postimg.cc/vbxhowe03/DSC00484.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/lemgvu6e7/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 24, 2018, 07:18:15 PM
How far back will you be reclined in the seat?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 25, 2018, 10:15:18 AM
How far back will you be reclined in the seat?

I seem to have more room than I thought, seats will be in the normal position I think

(https://s19.postimg.cc/dcyql3h4z/DSC00486.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/image/fuahsd11b/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on July 25, 2018, 11:02:00 AM
Now I'm beginning to see what you are up to.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 25, 2018, 12:38:42 PM
good, its getting there, the strut tops appear to be high think the seat may have to raise up a little
looking round the internet I don't see many buggy or sxs builds based on car components, yet to me it seems an obvious choice
the bits are really cheap really easy to find and robust yet not really used very much, anyone got any links to builds using car components ?
must be some out there

only thing I would change with this is I would prefer it to be auto instead of manual but that might happen yet
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: big dave on July 25, 2018, 03:10:46 PM
not sure of a sight. but a lot of guys have been using all wheel drive Subaru's.  Putting the engine and drive train  under VW bugs.  thy are  still rear engine but seem to work great.  love what your doing. But I'm thanking you need to pull your other build off the shelf and work on it. that build was really looking sweet.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 26, 2018, 08:56:45 AM
not sure of a sight. but a lot of guys have been using all wheel drive Subaru's.  Putting the engine and drive train  under VW bugs.  thy are  still rear engine but seem to work great.  love what your doing. But I'm thanking you need to pull your other build off the shelf and work on it. that build was really looking sweet.

thank you,  I did toy with the idea of a subrau but thought its a bit long for mid mounting,   and I will get back on the beachbuggy project by christmas
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 13, 2018, 11:26:05 AM
hello boys
had a bit of an enforced break but back on it again now

(https://i.postimg.cc/T1HJtN5D/DSC00571.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D4LGZggv)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fLDCy9hJ/DSC00572.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PLVYFNJj)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbCtpydh/DSC00573.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YhNtbbfH)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HL40qk7H/DSC00579.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/p9rn8xZ1)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrYNx4Yy/DSC00597.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mtZTp7d1)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gJjPZY5d/DSC00591.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QB2PLrhn)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bb19mm4V/DSC00595.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/n9ZPzYs4)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ncKRcgWK/gugkimuo.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/svX9T6s1)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 13, 2018, 12:57:29 PM
so that's an audi 20v turbo engine and box but I want to run an auto gearbox so that is coming back out and a V5 or V6 golf/rabbit engine with auto box is going back in
this is turning into a development hack as I have changed my mind on many things, like the subframes off the golf 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 13, 2018, 04:53:38 PM
Why the autobox?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 14, 2018, 01:42:48 PM
Why the autobox?


well 2 or 3 reasons really

1 I have always liked autos and like to drive with right foot on the gas pedal and the left on the brake,
I want to have 2 brake pedals next to each other one for the left and one for the right or both together for both sides, the only place I have to use this buggy is round a tight twisty track, pretty smooth grass but tight, being able to stamp on the left brake pedal ( or right ) and hitting the gas  when coming into a sharp corner causes it to pivot round the front wheel that's braking  and slide round the corner, well that's the theory anyway

but the deciding factor is I haven't left enough room to the right of the steering column to get a brake pedal in only the accelerator so that rules out a manual really as with a manual you have to brake with your right foot

(https://i.postimg.cc/JnMT3dWN/DSC00601.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XZ1c4Lqq)

picture dosent really show it well but I only have room for one size 13 boot to the right of the column 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2018, 02:03:18 PM
looks like a fun project. where will you run it?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 14, 2018, 02:16:17 PM
looks like a fun project. where will you run it?

hi dsrace

 I have a field that I planted loads of tress on then mowed a track around/through them,  I might have to loose a few trees as its a bit to tight really,
here's a vid of it  from 2012 6 years on its a full blown wood now and the track is 3 times as long as I have added bits in here and there
, was going to run something round it in the next couple of weeks and shoot some more video to see the difference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmMGUCmSPQ4


and I would like to talk sand rail design , but I need to get the engine and box out of the vw passat so we have some real world measurements to play with   


edit :  this one might show the track better even though it was a wet day, which is most days in the uk lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIEjlM4YEMg



.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2018, 03:38:55 PM
it appears you own a large section of ground!

looked like you were running some really good ground speeds through that trail including the swampy area. 30 to 40 mph? maybe 50 mph for a stregch or two. seemed to handle very well as i didnt see any fishtailing when you hit the marsh. i assume bonnet translates to hood lol.
 it would also appear that even all terrain vehicles have the steering wheel on the right side too lol i like the small detours from the track like slow moving lanes. the trail definately gets tight in spots. how wide was that buggy?

i have to ask, what is that pipe lating on the ground?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2018, 03:40:22 PM
definately the right place to ask sand rails questions.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2018, 04:04:31 PM
here are a couple decent Arial video's of the little sahara state park sand dune.

at 11 seconds, that is cowboy camp ground where most of us camp while at the dunes. fabr has his own compound in town  ;D rofl
https://youtu.be/bqbXZ1XBR1o




https://youtu.be/bqbXZ1XBR1o
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 14, 2018, 04:32:39 PM
Baloo,you really need to make the trip to our dunes. Talking about Sand rail design and LIVING sand rail design is completely different. You gotta experience it to understand the why's of what we do.

 I understand the why you are choosing an autobox . Many here don't even have a clue anymore how to drive a manual anything. Every sxs made for our market (other than the Yamaha YXZ) is a CVT trans. Personally I refuse to do a CVT. Manual sequentials are much more fun. Ya,it's just my opinion. Haven't regretted the decision.

The turning brakes are a great idea for your use on your track for sure. Sand cars use hand operated levers here for turning brakes. I don't use one .
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 14, 2018, 05:47:42 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs10VIHwuPA&feature=youtu.be  Play on youtube . Set settings to 1080 and the dunes detail shows much better.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2018, 06:27:54 PM
after that little ride in dougs rail i can see the attraction to an auto trans.  ;) ;)

here you go fabr
https://youtu.be/fs10VIHwuPA
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 14, 2018, 06:40:04 PM
and nots forget the great people in our little group!

https://youtu.be/4zo5znX7Nnw
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 15, 2018, 05:44:47 AM
it appears you own a large section of ground!

looked like you were running some really good ground speeds through that trail including the swampy area. 30 to 40 mph? maybe 50 mph for a stregch or two. seemed to handle very well as i didnt see any fishtailing when you hit the marsh. i assume bonnet translates to hood lol.
 it would also appear that even all terrain vehicles have the steering wheel on the right side too lol i like the small detours from the track like slow moving lanes. the trail definately gets tight in spots. how wide was that buggy?

i have to ask, what is that pipe lating on the ground?

hi

buggy can get up to sixty plus given enough space its a chineese cheap as chips type and pretty weak in some areas BUT it was cheap it is road legal and i have never broken  down in it,   its always been  contact with something solid like a tree that has ended playtime, people over here and probably over there dissmiss them as crap ! but it starts it goes and i think it handels well
the orginal 250cc engine was removed and a nissan micra 1000cc engine with 5 speed box dropped in  so it will do what ever a nissan micra will do speed wise
BUT you would not want to roll it the cage would collapse  or at least severly deform,  who ever designed it got lucky with the handling or maybe they knew what they were doing,  you can get the thing so far side ways and recover it its untrue

vid below is a guy called Dave from america over here on holiday having a go, see how far the back can be brought round and then recovered


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnPg8-2BmuE&index=6&list=UUtmPoDhI1LvQO9O5MXg_mqw

i have kept it because it always works its just a touch to small for me to fit in easily but would make a good buggy to copy made 10% bigger with a  bigger engine

and as for ending playtime this is one of the times l ripped the front corner off but it always comes back for more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb_5r8FTgg8&index=3&list=UUtmPoDhI1LvQO9O5MXg_mqw

that was me chasing charles round his wood he was driving a bog stanadard micra save for some grippy tyres, he was testing the cvt gearbox in it to see if would be good in a buggy,   cant say i like that track to much very  very rough with 6' drops here and there with tree stumps lining the edge but hey hoe it was fun till i ripped the wheel off lol


heres my chineese buggy

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjB7qC3Z/kinroad_1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXCmtWVK/kinroad.png) (https://postimages.org/)
 
back of that truck is 7' wide so buggy must be around 6' wide

pipe you can see by side of track just runs from one pond up to another further up so i can pump water up to keep it full if need be






Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 15, 2018, 05:51:03 AM
just watched the vids of little sahara  you guys are so lucky we don't have anything like that over here, just mud and more mud

I will try and get over there, but I might get addicted to the sand lol

if i was over there I would live sand rails too, probably a V8 up front  and independent rear  , lexus maybe
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 15, 2018, 05:52:34 AM
and nots forget the great people in our little group!

https://youtu.be/4zo5znX7Nnw

why did Scott need rescuing  what had happened to his rail ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 15, 2018, 11:16:04 AM
scott didnt maintain his suspension as he should've and it bit him in the a$$!  he had 2 heims break and it let go of is carrier then that rolled over and broke the head of the shock. thats why his drivers side is damn near on the ground. the heims were steel on steel low carbon and were 11 years old. too small to begin with really but lasted 11 years none the less. he knew they were worn pretty bad before the trip but never found time to replace them.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 15, 2018, 11:17:24 AM
i didnt even know lexus had v8's in them. there used to be a company called sand rocket that built front engine sand rails. not sure if there around anymore. not a popular configuration over here.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 15, 2018, 12:24:29 PM
even mid engine is rare with v-8's or v- anything.  . I like mid though.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 15, 2018, 02:59:52 PM
baloo look in the video section labeled sandracer1 trip     

the drone they use gives the landscape a unique view imo.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 15, 2018, 03:19:51 PM
well watched the video's you posted......your bud did swap end for end but did recover it!   nice video's and have a couple questions.
a. what kind of other buggy was that with what looked like bicycle wheels on it?
b. did your buddy make his new jersey trip?  ;D
c. what is the wheel base of your buggy in the video?

and the 2nd video....ya that took a shot lol
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 15, 2018, 05:11:50 PM
baloo look in the video section labeled sandracer1 trip     

the drone they use gives the landscape a unique view imo.
  Perfect perspective! Great vids!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 15, 2018, 05:13:35 PM
well watched the video's you posted......your bud did swap end for end but did recover it!   nice video's and have a couple questions.
a. what kind of other buggy was that with what looked like bicycle wheels on it?
b. did your buddy make his new jersey trip?  ;D
c. what is the wheel base of your buggy in the video?

and the 2nd video....ya that took a shot lol
Baloo posted a topic on it a while back. Maybe he can remember the title . Cool little buggy he built.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 15, 2018, 07:07:15 PM
i've just never seen wheels like that on a buggy. i have seen them on an electric offroad ride a while back in a video someone posted.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 16, 2018, 01:33:55 AM
well watched the video's you posted......your bud did swap end for end but did recover it!   nice video's and have a couple questions.
a. what kind of other buggy was that with what looked like bicycle wheels on it?
b. did your buddy make his new jersey trip?  ;D
c. what is the wheel base of your buggy in the video?

and the 2nd video....ya that took a shot lol

the bicycle wheel buggy  was built by Mark,  here's the original thread think its page 10 where that buggy starts but if you like reading have a look through the rest some interesting stuff for petrol heads


http://forum.difflock.com/viewtopic.php?t=14499&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=570b540bd8e16a3d9a0fe741933d95bd

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9ZWgwqD/11101-Picture-053-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


my orange buggy has a wheelbase of 80" I think which is what I am basing my current build on
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 16, 2018, 01:38:05 AM
baloo look in the video section labeled sandracer1 trip     

the drone they use gives the landscape a unique view imo.

had a look through those, just amazing , you guys are so lucky we can only dream of stuff like that,

nice camera work too, I notice the sand is absolutely covered in tyre tracks does it get really busy there at times then  if it does I bet that is dangerous with buggys flying about all over the place, you seem to have the place to your selves in those vids that's cool, when you go there how long do you stay for ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 16, 2018, 01:48:10 AM
i didnt even know lexus had v8's in them. there used to be a company called sand rocket that built front engine sand rails. not sure if there around anymore. not a popular configuration over here.


any lexus model that starts with 4 like the ls 430 or gs 430 will have a V8 in it, 4.3 lt a bit over 300hp quad cam engine, they are really cheap over here, you can buy a working driving car for £300, I have a few kicking around the place and in other projects


(https://i.postimg.cc/7YpQpHHc/DSC00188.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I can see the appeal of rear engine with wanting all the weight over the back wheels for traction and popping wheelies lol 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 18, 2018, 09:03:42 PM
baloo....here is a video of i and carlriddle running the trails at the dunes with a few dunes. this was a fun run.

https://youtu.be/rPHzgvM3s-g
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 18, 2018, 09:35:00 PM
And Carl is, to this day, still picking sand out of his nose.....................
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Carlriddle on October 19, 2018, 05:25:40 AM
 LMAO
We planned camera on rear and I tried to stay right on him thru trails.  Camera doesn't really show how close I was.  Those face mask really keep my nose from getting clogged.  From driver seat I seemed like 1-2 car length most of trails. LOL

Pretty sure that was old 3 wide cage, so lean while solo was wild.  Narrow frame, new front steer tires, keeps m e out of bushes better...……. LMAO LMAO LMAO
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 19, 2018, 06:06:40 AM
yep no steering tires on carls, yes it was a 3 seater still and i had one rear tire missing a couple paddles on the trip.   that was a fun run and trip!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 19, 2018, 12:51:53 PM
ok I just watched that, it sure looks like you guys have fun over there, even if we had sand dunes over here our government would let us drive on them in case we hurt ourselves pahhhh
I cant imagine how nice it must be to take your buggy home and have the sand blow off on the way back and hey presto clean buggy
its not like that here  several hours jet washing the mud off everytime you take it out

so who was in the lead buggy ,DSrace ? what engine is in that  and whats powering the second buggy ?

Andy
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 19, 2018, 01:12:47 PM
and just so you can see why I am envious of your sand


(https://i.postimg.cc/VN1Gg4mX/muddy.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jSy3yB0s/pilot.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsTybf8w/quad_1.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V6k7Q6S6/quad_2.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTvBXjPz/quad_3.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 19, 2018, 01:41:21 PM
oh wow that is a muddy mess! i would never do that to my rail  ;D ;D


yes i was in the lead, go pro was mounted on the rear. fyi go pro's don't like being mounted that close to your rail pipe lol at that time it was a turbo charged hayabusa. when you hear that high pitched sound through the go pro that is apprx 8k rpm to 9k rpm. only hit that a couple times in the video. carl's has a turbo charged ninja 12r but in that video he hadn't boosted it yet. it's a whole new machine with the turbo!!!

there is just enough clay in that sand that it doesn't all blow off but for damn sure nothing like your pics  LMAO LMAO holy crap!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 20, 2018, 08:29:26 AM
We have mud like that here also. Not in the dunes tho.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 21, 2018, 02:03:07 PM
I managed to find time to run the mower round my buggy track today bit wet really which  made it hard work for the mower but it got there in the end

and once  I could see where the track went again I thought I might as well do a couple of laps with the gopro on the bonnet, sorry hood  ;D  this was a road car on worn out road tyres running on wet grass so I couldn't really push it to hard but you can see the difference compared to the earlier vid which was a few years ago, lots more trees to collide with lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxsBgQlPZVg


as you can see a couple of trees need moving  or I need a swb buggy instead of a lwb station wagon lol
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 21, 2018, 02:13:04 PM
and progress on the buggy too, remade the shock top mounts, something less industrial

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JWgCSN0/DSC00605.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WhLFs7Ms)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Prc16Wv3/DSC00606.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rd40qpZ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/76xzCXj6/DSC00607.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HRyT54d)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xvmzkgK/DSC00608.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DS7SXyjD)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpGWF7n3/DSC00609.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HJxj6vC9)



Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 21, 2018, 03:29:29 PM
the build looks good. i like the trail ride. clipped a few tree branches which is good lol glad you mounted the go pro on the hood rather than the bonnet  ;) rofl   there is just 1 turn you just couldnt make it through. i read you had said wore out tires and wet grass so wenll let that1 turn slide....this time  :D lol.    i bet there is some good hunting in that forest! the trees are so think in spots its like a wall of fencing!  that would be fun with some aggressive tires and if its wet a lot then awd or 4wd. you seemed to get some good speed up in the straight aways!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 22, 2018, 12:19:12 AM
the build looks good. i like the trail ride. clipped a few tree branches which is good lol glad you mounted the go pro on the hood rather than the bonnet  ;) rofl   there is just 1 turn you just couldnt make it through. i read you had said wore out tires and wet grass so wenll let that1 turn slide....this time  :D lol.    i bet there is some good hunting in that forest! the trees are so think in spots its like a wall of fencing!  that would be fun with some aggressive tires and if its wet a lot then awd or 4wd. you seemed to get some good speed up in the straight aways!


yer the camera is so much better on the hood lol, I am 3 weeks or so late doing this most of the leaves have fallen now it looks a bit bleak,  and yes lots of deer around pesky things eat all my trees when I plant them , I will remove that one tree I think ,
anyway back on to the buggy I think
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 27, 2018, 03:19:27 PM


(https://i.postimg.cc/NGNN3wxJ/1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4n9bcqqV)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdmMjQmy/5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/9rPd8TWf)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRrZ6PkX/4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7CR0GnNK)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zXskNDHj/DSC00639.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SJG97hr2)

(https://i.postimg.cc/t4FN40hH/DSC00640.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/cv4nFb9D)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LDMCBVJ/DSC00641.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/75sTdnjq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKMYgfHH/DSC00642.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cz0Dq1jp)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjX6yzgg/DSC00643.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7C5TkTy0)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 27, 2018, 03:21:56 PM


(https://i.postimg.cc/wxbVWQ6n/DSC00644.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/z3KKvWHk)


(https://i.postimg.cc/502Bg6Dx/DSC00645.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wtnRTT6P)


(https://i.postimg.cc/7LyX3Px6/8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rDQSckRX)



(https://i.postimg.cc/x1qhq16b/1-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PCs2RTst)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 28, 2018, 01:33:01 AM
I bought some standard golf front shocks since they were cheap, cut the spring perches off and welded 2" threaded tube on so l could use 2.25" coil over springs,  that way it gives me access to all sorts of spring rates and lengths


(https://i.postimg.cc/fbhrVGKN/DSC00617.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5Xn3GkT7)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhWMfW6y/DSC00618.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RNTQ6DSS)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0y7t1tqH/DSC00619.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w1T5hQMh)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wMtVf2V2/DSC00621.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/wRpL3hnR)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJmXrrCR/DSC00623.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WDdMypMz)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on October 28, 2018, 07:47:57 AM
i have never seen a strut to coil over conversion, nice work!   the frame looks like it's coming along nice but i expect that from you!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on October 28, 2018, 08:29:55 AM
Looks good. Lots of dirt/asphalt racers here do similar to shocks with readily available kits. Only drawback is not being able to adjust valving. Access to readily available springs is a big bonus.
https://pitstopusa.com/c-134885-chassis-suspension-shock-parts-accessories-coil-over-kits-afco-coil-over-kits.html
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 28, 2018, 11:13:44 AM
i have never seen a strut to coil over conversion, nice work!   the frame looks like it's coming along nice but i expect that from you!

hi thanks, I am anxious to weigh the frame its starting to look heavy, but I can stand in it pick it up and walk with it so it cant be that heavy, just the pedal and steering column mounts to go on it now then I will hang it on the scales

Andy
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on October 28, 2018, 11:16:28 AM
Looks good. Lots of dirt/asphalt racers here do similar to shocks with readily available kits. Only drawback is not being able to adjust valving. Access to readily available springs is a big bonus.
https://pitstopusa.com/c-134885-chassis-suspension-shock-parts-accessories-coil-over-kits-afco-coil-over-kits.html

Hi Fabr
yep that's the stuff and as you say you cant change the valving but there is quite a big range of shocks for the golf/rabbit from the tiny 4 pots to the 3.2lt v6, so if its miles off I can try a better shock insert as they come out ( I think )

Andy
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on November 11, 2018, 08:51:46 AM
 I have made the decision about engine choice, I stripped the v5 golf and plan and using that with its autobox

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wSfdxXr/42.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QB7JzsYv)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4N68p56S/43.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppdYHK1f)

I have made the pedal box and half way through mounting the steering column

chassis is now on a spit so i can finish the welding

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8VPVVFK/DSC00652.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/G9bJ09pP)

(https://i.postimg.cc/02FsMQ1b/DSC00653.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4m6MjXdg)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on November 11, 2018, 10:12:26 AM
Putting it on a spit is the cat's ass !!!! I built a full chassis table rotisserie ,as we call it here, and it makes final welding a LOT easier for sure!!!!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on November 11, 2018, 08:00:39 PM
looks good!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Grimm Reaper Racing on November 13, 2018, 03:19:49 PM
Putting it on a spit is the cat's ass !!!! I built a full chassis table rotisserie ,as we call it here, and it makes final welding a LOT easier for sure!!!!

That's for sure!  I wish I would've had one...  Thankfully I had multiple chain hoists, but it was still a pain in the arse.

This project is looking sweet!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 08:31:57 AM
(https://i.postimg.cc/G247HYhq/IMG_20181117_110016.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/1nZcd8Fq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvY7SNsj/IMG_20181117_110413_(1).jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4KcQw6YG)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qB9Y6mKn/IMG_20181117_110425.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kDvwkvfX)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jShk9tFQ/IMG_20181117_111403_(1).jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fVJKSnZJ)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 08:40:49 AM

I know l know ……………………………………………………………………………………….

I've put he steering wheel  on the wrong side again 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on November 17, 2018, 09:31:13 AM
Love that tilt mechanism. Details??
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 10:00:48 AM
Love that tilt mechanism. Details??

I will take some pics of it dissembled tomorrow 

my transaxle engine and box is also out of the car, will start asking questions in my other thread

(https://i.postimg.cc/TPYHvB88/IMG-20181117-115549-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dhp98Htn)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 11:42:55 AM
very nice work!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 11:57:47 AM
very nice work!

thank you

ds I saw some photos of some rear hubs you made but cant find them now, have you got any pics ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 01:06:18 PM
any idea what they looked like? i have made a few designs.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on November 17, 2018, 01:08:07 PM
page 1,2 and 6

https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5658.75
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on November 17, 2018, 01:41:25 PM
page 1,2 and 6

https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5658.75

it was these

(https://i.postimg.cc/J4qrLTPN/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on March 10, 2019, 07:52:40 AM
well hello boys
sorry about the lack of updates, things have moved on a bit

think it was a bare frame last time I posted but now its wearing a nice new coat of Kawasaki green

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYGvZNJ1/DSC00675.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/yWHK5K0N)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKVKYP1T/DSC00677.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5GcsxJq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XJt4fdJd/DSC00680.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vr9x1SXk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsXpGNgj/DSC00683.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FY28LbZK)

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6PGnbg6/DSC00686.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Vrwh7Y2Q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3MckFH9/DSC00688.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLCVkrG8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQgRs20p/DSC00698.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzN1xhg6)


I have lazer cut the engine mountings but now thinking of solid mounting the engine and box, anyone got ideas/views on doing that ?





.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on March 10, 2019, 09:02:29 AM
first off...nice job looks really good! solid mounting will send a lot of vibration but  that is how 95% of the offroad engines are mounted. i know there are a couple builders that use a poly or some kind of very slight dampening on the motor mounts then sold mount the trans. i tried this once and saw now vibration dampening compared to solid mount. so it's really up to you depending on your purpose.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on March 10, 2019, 09:09:19 AM
hi dsrace

well if it was a road car I wouldn't entertain the idea but as it will be bouncing around a field most of the time I came to the conclusion the vibrations wont matter or be very noticeable,   I have cut the tolerances so fine I don't really have the room for rubber bushes between the engine and the frame
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on March 10, 2019, 09:18:30 AM
now here's the reason for the lack of progress, I got distracted as you do

I have started this buggy based on a vw for all the wrong reasons, its was free !!!

I should have done my homework better   5:

I came across a pic of a mazda mx5 with no clothes on   dam sexy I thought


 (https://i.postimg.cc/wM0kW70V/screenshot-59.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qBLQB543/screenshot-72.png) (https://postimages.org/)


so you get a front and rear subframe complete with double wishbone suspension all round  how difficult can it be to join these up with a tube frame


.
 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on March 10, 2019, 09:22:44 AM


well not that hard it seems

I got talking to a guy doing that over your side of the pond

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FH1cw4r/screenshot-78.png) (https://postimages.org/)


well I couldn't resist so I hit ebay and found myself a pair of subframes to tinker with  ;D ;D ;D ;D

dident like all the bits dirty so off to the blasters they went

(https://i.postimg.cc/tC4ksN4m/screenshot_74.png) (https://postimages.org/)


and so a parallel build started   at least I can pit a rear engine buggy against a front engine on lol
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on March 10, 2019, 09:58:26 AM
hi dsrace

well if it was a road car I wouldn't entertain the idea buts as it will be bouncing around a field most of the time I came to the conclusion the vibrations wont matter or be very noticeable,   I have cut the tolerances so fine I don't really have the room for rubber bushes between the engine and the frame


nothing wrong with solid mount, all but one of mine have been.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on March 10, 2019, 09:59:05 AM
thanks for the pics of the mx5......very interesting.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on March 10, 2019, 10:16:04 AM
I thought so too when I first saw them,  if you don't learn something new every day then you haven't been listening I was told many moons ago

Damon the guy building with the mx5 axles is well ahead of me

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNqGGDCG/screenshot-86.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/655sBP47/screenshot-87.png) (https://postimages.org/)


seems they use mx5 running gear for all sort of things

(https://i.postimg.cc/9Fx60ByL/screenshot-82.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on March 10, 2019, 01:23:42 PM
very interesting
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on March 10, 2019, 01:45:00 PM
well l like the double wishbone suspension set up,  not big travel but probably enough for what I want,
they are easy to bolt into a frame   and they are so cheap over here due to them suffering from rust issues to the body shell, no one wants to weld them up or they arnt worth doing   you can buy one for a couple hunded pounds/dollars  and there are turbo and supercharged versions to be had,

I went with a base layer of 2"x2" box section

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yvqY9hJ/DSC00712.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn1mtdNt)

(https://i.postimg.cc/15McxNBp/screenshot_88.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/137TVP4N/DSC00719.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/rDWg7B18)

(https://i.postimg.cc/VN3V4Rqf/DSC00720.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nsG2hqSg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt1nzTmp/DSC00721.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MMZDMXhT)

(https://i.postimg.cc/X7Q1t3fD/DSC00723.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qz6GCPZ8)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on March 10, 2019, 04:12:55 PM
I like it. All the hard stuff is already done.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 31, 2020, 08:07:31 AM
hello boys   hows things over there ?

cant remember where i got to posting wise  5:   amongst my  half dozen projects   i have one using mx5 front and rear suspension
i have been progressing that one while i waiting for bits to arrive for one of the others
heres a few pics  to bring it back up todate

(https://i.postimg.cc/hj0t4Wzd/7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jwLbv1hx)


(https://i.postimg.cc/x8TTcxMF/77.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9wrzq6p)


(https://i.postimg.cc/bvkvM2qL/7777.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/8FkDfcJr)


(https://i.postimg.cc/Bnd6MCfX/77777.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPyBrCDs)


(https://i.postimg.cc/nhsr4P5y/88.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xX29Yt95)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 31, 2020, 08:09:24 AM


(https://i.postimg.cc/fTqk0NH7/888.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nC7n66fM)


(https://i.postimg.cc/wTj7vvkT/8888.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/z34J2qM9)


(https://i.postimg.cc/508FwRH4/m13.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hzPjnMb6)


(https://i.postimg.cc/CMNRSDkQ/mx1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ThKdcKkV)


(https://i.postimg.cc/tRtxJ8QD/mx11.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XXqJDHvy)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 31, 2020, 08:11:22 AM



(https://i.postimg.cc/QM2TK3dY/mx12.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/R3TF22fw)


(https://i.postimg.cc/DwYsFskT/mx14.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v4fDt4Zq)


(https://i.postimg.cc/YSGFS9Mm/mx15.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z9mn7J9T)


(https://i.postimg.cc/3NnN153T/mx2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RJJvCY3s)


(https://i.postimg.cc/C1CzZntd/mx4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGJVmqn0)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on July 31, 2020, 08:13:26 AM


(https://i.postimg.cc/TwvKYJtZ/mx5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kVwJTK3c)


(https://i.postimg.cc/C1CzZntd/mx4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGJVmqn0)


(https://i.postimg.cc/NjL9NMyP/mx7.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WdL1zswM)


(https://i.postimg.cc/c4FtMYJn/mx8.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F7JKhY3r)


(https://i.postimg.cc/hvgQM1x9/mx9.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/BLYvnDm6)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 01, 2020, 08:52:20 AM
looks like you've made some progress!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 02, 2020, 12:03:31 PM
hi

 well ive added in some more tubes   not sure its progress lol,  ive been running  a standard car round my track and i dont think the suspension is going to be up to it at anything other than walking pace,  i think i need long ravel but this is the uk   and there is  no ready available stuff  on the market   and our idea of long travel is probably your idea of short travel lol

what is you sell dsrace ?l

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGFEu1iLD3o
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 02, 2020, 12:09:44 PM
i dont really sell anything anymore. i still have the jigs to build a a rm front ends.  i/we ( dts) can explain how to build longer travel components but you will need shocks to match.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 02, 2020, 12:40:28 PM
im just working my way through your posts on suspension you seem to know your stuff

i think what i would like is something like a honda pilot but 50% bigger so i fit in it , as for suspension travel i think 12" would be plenty ?
front is pretty much A arm   but the rear is more tricky as i would like to use a car engine and box which is fairly wide leaving less room for A arms or at least they would be pretty short  which rather defeats the aim ?  so maybe  trailing arm at the back ?
any help in designing  something would be much appreciated
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 04, 2020, 04:38:25 PM
lol well hond pilots are pretty small lol dont get me wrong, pilots are/were a blast!  so do you have any pics of the trans box you have in mind?  so trailing arms (ta's) are not as simple as people think but the easiest to set up, maybe. they are definately the most limiting in the grand scheme of suspension geometry.  post up a few pics and i and everyone else will pitch in on some ideas.  if you build a rear cradle like you have in the pics above then the sky is the limit!
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 04, 2020, 04:41:38 PM
any sources for fox or king shocks over your way? i would assume so or are there any sxs junk yards or used parts for sale? most of the sxs 1000cc or turbo 1000 units are 1700lbs to 2000 plus lbs depending. stock shocks on 24" travel units are typically 12" stroke or 10" on 20" travel units. so these would be viable options if those are easier to come by.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 04, 2020, 04:43:41 PM
if you do have sources for those then i would target the 2.5 podium series or atleast the 2.5 body shocks. those will offer better options especially for 12" of travel which i think may be to little but hey it your project lol  i would shoot for 16 to 18" and i think thats acheivable.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 04, 2020, 04:59:42 PM
https://www.race-dezert.com/forum/threads/semi-trailing-arm-geometry.82413/
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 07:04:08 AM
Hi

well im thinking rear engine as it might make the buggy smaller overall ?  engine choice is pretty much wide open  any front engined modern car will work i guess,   i have a choice of 2 or 3 kicking around the place  first is the rover K series  as found in the back of an mgf so its already set up for cable gearchange and hand brake on the rear calipers, its big plus is that its all aluminum so a very light engine which is why lotus used it guess    and a turbo version is found in the rover 75 car

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_K-series_engine

i also have an audi/vw  4 cylinder turbo engine and box   this will make heaps more power than the rover but its cast iron and weighs considerably more    and if i really want to i also have a golf Vr6 2.8    that will have instant grunt and no turbo lag  but how much power do you need ?    i feel the  the rover  K series will work with around 140 hp ?   the golf is more like 240 hp


golf engine looks like this    fairly narrow front to back with the ancillaries removed   so could the A arms run down in front and behind it to make them a reasonable length ?  but what would they mount to ? 

(https://i.postimg.cc/LsnztJr9/IMG_20180604_181149.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zLYb5Gz6)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXvFq3Qm/IMG_20180604_181209.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ppynJScG)


Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 07:06:30 AM
oh and yes fox air shocks are available here  in fact i  have 3   used to be 4 but one got lost in the move  5:
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 12:59:47 PM
slowride, any thoughts??
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 01:04:36 PM
well i suppose the first question is should it be rear engined ?
 and this is the uk  no sand dunes here unfortunately   
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 01:23:48 PM
i wouldn't oppose a front engined buggy but i dont want a high bonnet line so that would push me down the route of a flat four engine like a subaru mated up to a rear wheel drive gearbox  which might make packaging the front and rear A arms easier ???
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 01:42:01 PM
oh i would put it all in the rear. now mid or rear engine is up to you. so in the picture that cradle the engine was bolted too, that would require trailing arms ( ta's).   muliti link or rear a arm need to pivot down the center of the cv. on engine choice i would go with the trans that has bolt on cv's, plunging bolt on cv's. you'll want atleast 3" plus of plunge for ta's.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 01:46:24 PM
so the link i posted on the last page, it has some basic info on ta design. now the photbucket pic that is blocked, that had a good diagram. i assume he opted out of photobuckets huge mess and new yearly fees and thats why it blocked. not a lot of info out there on ta's, that i have found. i have never built them and do not plan on it. i pre fer a 5 or 6 link, a-arm or even a 4 link rear end over a ta. thats my personal opinion now.  4 links are not a favorite but imo still better then a ta lol
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 01:49:07 PM
i remember the videos of you running through the field/dirt track. so definately want to build a front steer front end. you want oversteer for those runs. rear steer is under steer and sucks offroad imo.  sooooo, the audi/vw engines you have access too.......is there cv flange bolt circle the same as the plungin porshe 930 cv joints or even type 4 vw cv joints?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 01:55:41 PM
https://www.rcvperformance.com/ultimate-930-plunging-cv-joint-finned-chromoly-cage-and-28-spline.html

or  cheaper ones

https://www.pacificcustoms.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=PC&Product_Code=porsche930cv-empi-1&Category_Code=porsche-930-and-911-turbo 

Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 02:00:43 PM
the vw ones are bolt on  and i think they are plunging  will dig them out and have a looksy

(https://i.postimg.cc/sfZxkhhQ/screenshot-293.png) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 02:01:45 PM
which pic of engine in cradle are you referring to ?

i would prefer A arms
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 03:15:18 PM
this is the pic i was referring to. it may be an engine stand more than a cradle. so if you mount this in a cradle then you'll want to get the trans positioned for equal length axles....as close as you can.  the pivot points ( center of heims or center of bushings) of a arms needs to pivot on the same plane the center of the cv does. same at the wheels and even though plunging cvs change a tiny bit you still want to aim for the center of the cv housing.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 03:33:48 PM
this is the pic i was referring to. it may be an engine stand more than a cradle. so if you mount this in a cradle then you'll want to get the trans positioned for equal length axles....as close as you can.  the pivot points ( center of heims or center of bushings) of a arms needs to pivot on the same plane the center of the cv does. same at the wheels and even though plunging cvs change a tiny bit you still want to aim for the center of the cv housing.

ah yes that frame  its just so i can run the engine up   but you make a good point about drive shaft length, the golf has unequal shafts one is about a foot longer than the other   that will be a problem wont it  unless i can use 2 long shafts and offset the engine/box ?    will investigate that
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 04:55:52 PM
two long shafts should work. if its a 2 seater then you'll have room to center the output flanges of the trans. now if your going stock u joints and axles then 12" of travel is prob a better idea. you won't know until you find out max deflection for the stock cv and length of axle to be used. with an a arm rear end or multi link .....you can design it for neg camber and true stroke.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 05, 2020, 05:02:52 PM
this is not a great video for sure  ;D i was having an issue with rcv's plunging cv's and made the video to illistrate this. if you look, pause the video in spots, you'll see that the bolts that connect my heims to the frame and wheel bearing carrier are centered with the pivot of point of the cv. this is the only way to get the bending moment the same for the least amount of stress on the cv and least amount of axle plunge required.

https://youtu.be/UkB1f1dKPi8
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 05, 2020, 11:57:28 PM
thank you     looks a whole lot easier with a transaxle than a  transverse engine and box
i will do some measuring and see how wide it comes out with 2 long shafts, might be to wide
i could switch to something with a transaxle like an audi but that starts to make the buggy long
still it gives me something to think about lol
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 09, 2020, 06:36:14 AM
i have designed and built 4 links, 5 links and 6 link rear ends. i call all three of those types as multi link rear ends. i pre fer those over an trailing arm ( vw style) any day of the week. now they have there limitations as far as impact from boulders , tree stumps etc etc.  so does everything depending on how it was built but you know what i mean. i will link a video on a 4 to 5 link rear end. not mine and the wheel bearing carrier ( yellow part) in the video was designed wrong. you'll notice the the radius rod heims joints bolt on behind the cv joint. those pivot points need to be in the center of the cv pivot point so that they all articulate together. plus all needs to be in double shear. now if they offset them the same distance at the frame then it would work. it doesn't appear that they did but you get the general jist of it. an a arm rear end will operate on the same principal of pivoting down the centerline of the cv as well.  now the a-arms can be designed in a number of different shapes that fit you cradle and wheel bearing carrier that you design and build. just remember the spread at the frame vs length of arms.

and accurate quote from fabbr    " A.75:1 ratio would be ample for strength. In other words if arm is 24" long then a arm mount spread at frame of 18" would be ample. Simple triangulation from front pivot to rear heim is also more than adequate.

 Upper arm spread,IMO is too narrow at frame pivots. Again ,something in the area of .65:1 would be the right ballpark. However,I'd run the shock thru the upper arm and that would make the wider mounting work well. The upper arm gets a lot less loading than the lower and just needs minimal reinforcement."

something to keep in mind when deciding which road to try. i do personally believe a arms would be the best choice for you terrain.  i personally believe that the forward arm or an forward arm( on the lower only) needs to be at a 45* angle from the center of the stub axle to the frame. i believe this gives you the best forward support for driving forces. this can make the lowers look huge and gawdy and can be done with a single radius rod or what ever you can imagine. not all are built this way and seem to work very well, it's just my opinion.

here is the link to the 5 link.....

https://youtu.be/TP1rDl1fKwc 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 09, 2020, 06:47:54 AM
hi dsrace
   2 long shafts makes it all too wide for here in the uk    its not like your wide open sand dunes  :m

i have a couple of options which i will post up later when i have got some pics
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 09, 2020, 06:52:56 AM
or just build one of these and take a few trees down  ;D ;D

https://youtu.be/K_0kBd5D_UE
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 09, 2020, 06:53:29 AM
hi dsrace
   2 long shafts makes it all too wide for here in the uk    its not like your wide open sand dunes  :m

i have a couple of options which i will post up later when i have got some pics

what about 2 short axles?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 09, 2020, 06:55:15 AM
thank you ds   i am digesting this      i do think A arm is the way to go    will ponder some more
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 09, 2020, 06:59:43 AM
here is a crappy video of our little sand dune park in oklahoma. 6 years old and for some reason missing the rest of the sound. go pro was on the back of my rail and fast corvairs was following me. good trip, he will be missed!!!!

https://youtu.be/zDRaEuIUXcs
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 09, 2020, 07:00:02 AM
hi dsrace
   2 long shafts makes it all too wide for here in the uk    its not like your wide open sand dunes  :m

i have a couple of options which i will post up later when i have got some pics

what about 2 short axles?


think   they might be to short   will mock it up
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 09, 2020, 07:06:01 AM
doesn't pertain to your build and yes i desperately need to fix my go pro mount and isolate the vibrations which send the steady shot into a seizure. so in this quick clip, mike is leading, his son is behind him and fastcorvairs is in front of me. mike dusts his son  rofl rofl it still makes me laugh


https://youtu.be/owm6EQcTPbY
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 11, 2020, 02:16:08 AM
you guys dont know how lucky  you are to have dunes to play in  ;)   all we get over here is wet sticky mud
im very envious of what you have over there   8)   

(https://i.postimg.cc/VN1Gg4mX/muddy.png) (https://postimages.org/)

Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 11, 2020, 02:22:06 AM

ok i ve played around with the golf engine and box  its difficult to get it to package well  so maybe i should be using the audi engine and box

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTWsnVb9/DSC00488.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDYyKrd5)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmp1mtpP/DSC00489.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/94YX8ZXT)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P9trDMc/IMG-20181117-115549-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/QHgpR26Z)

looks a whole lot easier to package  :)    and passat rear hubs are cheap and look easy to adapt

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm3rkTFb/passat-hub.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)



and this must be one of your pics ds ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs7TR1fw/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 11, 2020, 10:26:58 AM
def the audi trans is easier to start with. yes those are carriers i built. i still have some blank plates.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 11, 2020, 10:27:31 AM
i'm not into mudding with my rail but some are into mudding with sxs's and woods buggies
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 11, 2020, 12:11:28 PM
i'm not into mudding with my rail but some are into mudding with sxs's and woods buggies

i dont want to be into mudding we dont have a lot of choice lol
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 12, 2020, 12:53:11 PM
Hi ds
   have you any pictures or the rear suspension taken from behind ?
where do position the lower inner A arm mounts in terms of height ?   do you make them level with the lowest point of the transmission ??   and what sort of separation between the lower and the top mount ?      the outer end has obviously has to fit inside the rear wheel rim  so i guess you keep it as small as possible ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: deranged on August 13, 2020, 09:11:46 AM
Hi ds
   have you any pictures or the rear suspension taken from behind ?
where do position the lower inner A arm mounts in terms of height ?   do you make them level with the lowest point of the transmission ??   and what sort of separation between the lower and the top mount ?      the outer end has obviously has to fit inside the rear wheel rim  so i guess you keep it as small as possible ?
Is this what you are looking for?   LMAO
(https://i.imgur.com/uHNh2Qf.jpg)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on August 13, 2020, 09:56:38 AM
Welllll, it IS a rear shot...............................
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 10:01:10 AM
the one trip i forget a belt they were just waiting to get nasty pics  LMAO LMAO sick sob's  LMAO LMAO   baloo i do not have any pics at work with me. i will look around tonight and see what i still have.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 10:03:25 AM
also..... basically you pic a size of carrier that will fit nicely inside the rim your going to use and then match those measurements back at the frame. pivots on the same plane at the same moment in a perfect world.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 01:20:17 PM
https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=5336.135
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 01:21:37 PM
https://dtsfab.com/index.php?topic=4146.60
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 05:18:26 PM
i posted those two links for the pictures more than anything. so basically you either design a carrier based on how you build the trans/engine cradle or build the carriers then build the cradle to match. when i say cradle i mean the structure surrounding the trans that your a-arms or radius rods will bolt to. i am not sure if your going to use heims or bushings.  of course the carrier will need to fit inside your rim with brakes attached. the brakes have gotten  overlooked on a few here and there lol. so i always want the biggest carrier i can fit inside the rim, for support.  you want the a-arms ( i will assume your building a-arms) mounts/ pivot points centered down the centerline of the cv as close to center as possible.  now there are variations to that and they are acceptable. if you pitch the upper pivots in ahead of the cv centerline then you want the lowers inside of the cv so that the imaginary line drawn from center of top bolt to bottom bolt, runs through the cv.  now if you design it this way then it needs to match at the trans side and i mean match as in the same direction. everything needs to pivot on the same lines at the same time to minimize axle plunge. you don't want any bind either which is why the cv needs to pivot on the same axis as the a arm pivots/bolt centers. i am adding a pic of an old cad print from my early sand rail design. p2 represents the center of the cv.  now to illustrate or better explain what i was saying above....    if p1 stuck out farther past the cv then p3 would need to be shorter/closer to the carrier so the center line of the pivots still ran through the cv. now in doing this, it complicates the trans side or trans output flange cv side.  that cad print is of a bike powered rail rear end that used a sprocket. included a pic of that center carrier that the rotor and sprocket bolted to. you can see the studs sticking out that the cv's bolted to. this should help explain the center area of the cad print. the last cad print is of the carrier i used for that rail. it used a 97 jeep cherokee front wheel bearing
( 4x4 of course) and the 27 spline stub axle off the cherokee for u joint axles or you can buy 27 spline cv axle from karteck.  that carrier was for a 12" rim so you could square it off and expand for a 15" rim. you would need to weld tabs on or something to reach out to the center of the cv.  i don't know if i am the best person to try and explain this. i do know it with out thinking about it but cannot always illustrate it very well. 
the last pic was an unfortunate break but you can see at the trans side how the line up the same as at the wheel. yes there u joints and i still pre fer u joints and yes i am currently running cv's. long story as to why lol



(https://i.postimg.cc/hhNwFyV8/cad-4-link.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hhNwFyV8)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JGJFRNQf/dw1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JGJFRNQf)



(https://i.postimg.cc/xkjpGWSQ/0704081945-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/xkjpGWSQ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CZvPcmFq/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CZvPcmFq)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7GfBd06Q/DSCN0958.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7GfBd06Q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/LYwyp5g4/DSCN0959.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/LYwyp5g4)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V50GFq2J/DSCN0967.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/V50GFq2J)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Cn8cL0bG/DSCN0968.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Cn8cL0bG)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 05:19:05 PM
those pics got shuffled. you'll know which i was referring too.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 13, 2020, 05:20:27 PM
these are the carriers in the cad pring


(https://i.postimg.cc/5HkgBy35/DSCN0684.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HkgBy35)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 16, 2020, 09:27:25 AM
thank you for your help   im reading and wading through the pics
so ive more or less discounted the transverse engine due to the unequal length driveshafts so that leave me with 2 cars here
that i can use,  one is a vw pasasat  which has the easy to configure transaxle  the other is a mazda RX8   5:
yes i know not that well looked on over here for longevity but its a buggy that probably doesn't do 50 miles a year   but on the plus sie it has an irs diff that would be easy to package ?  and that rotary engine might be interesting as its going to rev a lot more rhan a piston engine,  10,000 i am being told   that would give me a lot more flexibility out on the track, select second and thats it   a bit like an auto
what are your thoughts on an RX8 as a base ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 16, 2020, 11:36:00 AM
these are the carriers in the cad pring


(https://i.postimg.cc/5HkgBy35/DSCN0684.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HkgBy35)

hi ds   do you  run with front brakes only ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2020, 03:00:21 PM
these are the carriers in the cad pring


(https://i.postimg.cc/5HkgBy35/DSCN0684.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5HkgBy35)

hi ds   do you  run with front brakes only ?

those were used on bike powered so the brakes were in the center. they are independent however they are also live rearends so one brake across from the sprocket.
 here is an early version


(https://i.postimg.cc/nj1XzKnG/929rr4.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nj1XzKnG)



(https://i.postimg.cc/Z07qM5nn/DSCN0711.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z07qM5nn)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2020, 03:09:00 PM
thank you for your help   im reading and wading through the pics
so ive more or less discounted the transverse engine due to the unequal length driveshafts so that leave me with 2 cars here
that i can use,  one is a vw pasasat  which has the easy to configure transaxle  the other is a mazda RX8   5:
yes i know not that well looked on over here for longevity but its a buggy that probably doesn't do 50 miles a year   but on the plus sie it has an irs diff that would be easy to package ?  and that rotary engine might be interesting as its going to rev a lot more rhan a piston engine,  10,000 i am being told   that would give me a lot more flexibility out on the track, select second and thats it   a bit like an auto
what are your thoughts on an RX8 as a base ?

as far as my thoughts on a wankle engine in a sand rail  ;D

https://youtu.be/MnJG9iwLTUY
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2020, 03:11:31 PM
i really like rotory engines

https://youtu.be/WQ5tbgnn-Fc
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2020, 03:12:41 PM
https://youtu.be/E9898WNq2n8
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 16, 2020, 03:15:42 PM
https://youtu.be/2Mtu-N8KYhg
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: deranged on August 17, 2020, 06:01:31 AM
Welllll, it IS a rear shot...............................
LMAO
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: deranged on August 17, 2020, 06:01:58 AM
the one trip i forget a belt they were just waiting to get nasty pics  LMAO LMAO sick sob's  LMAO LMAO   baloo i do not have any pics at work with me. i will look around tonight and see what i still have.

  LMAO
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: deranged on August 17, 2020, 06:05:25 AM
Just to plug a little info in here.  I personally am not a fan of the center rear brake.  If you jam on the brakes all of the rear end joints have to unload and are taking a beating to slow down the tires and the car.  Outboard brakes once applied it has to stop the wheel and there is no shock loading and unloading of the driveline components. 
I hope I said that in a way that it makes sense.  I can see it in my head.  LOL

Justin
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on August 17, 2020, 08:18:56 AM
Just to plug a little info in here.  I personally am not a fan of the center rear brake.  If you jam on the brakes all of the rear end joints have to unload and are taking a beating to slow down the tires and the car.  Outboard brakes once applied it has to stop the wheel and there is no shock loading and unloading of the driveline components. 
I hope I said that in a way that it makes sense.  I can see it in my head.  LOL

Justin
Completely agree. Inboard brakes are not a good idea off road. For a track car ,trying to eliminate all the unsprung weight as possible for handling,yes but not offroad for the reason you gave.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 17, 2020, 09:05:57 AM
Just to plug a little info in here.  I personally am not a fan of the center rear brake.  If you jam on the brakes all of the rear end joints have to unload and are taking a beating to slow down the tires and the car.  Outboard brakes once applied it has to stop the wheel and there is no shock loading and unloading of the driveline components. 
I hope I said that in a way that it makes sense.  I can see it in my head.  LOL

Justin


im with you both on this one, l like my  brakes  at the wheel end  :)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 19, 2020, 11:23:05 PM
  morning guys
              i was tiding the workshop yesterday and came across these mx5 rear hubs,   the top fixing point is about an inch further inboard than the bottom   why would they do that ?      other wise they look to have potential to use instead of making hubs ?

anyway i think i have made the decision to build  a buggy based on the mazda RX8 that is parked around the back   ;)


(https://i.postimg.cc/hv12HWk8/nnnn.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JHt3kg4t)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L4tQqLJq/n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SjKf3X7q)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hGX3hYmg/m.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WDP7HXSf)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CK9r84C8/mmm.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ffgx53BF)

Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 20, 2020, 10:47:01 AM
theres a lot to it but simple answer is ......factory uses 4" of travel with a max of 6". 4" and still has bump steer, just controlable through power steering untill shock, struts and bushings wear.  moral of it..... dont do what they do lol lol you waant 12" travel so you need to build yours 3 times better.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 20, 2020, 12:23:11 PM
  well i guess that makes sense   so im going to have to build my own hubs then

i went round the back of the barn the other day to have a look at the RX8 thats been there for 2 years

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zj8xCST/rrrr.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v15YfvcL)

so thats the car thats going to give up its axle engine and box      but before i strip it   i think it would be a good idea to separate the engine wiring harness and get it running while its still in the body 

so with that in mind i called round at my pals who builds rotary engines for a living  a few cups of tea and lots of chat and i leave with this for free  an engineless damaged rx8  with running gear wheels tyres and seats which  will enable me to start mocking up suspension with out waiting till i strip the black one

(https://i.postimg.cc/zfBycmsK/rr.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k20M2HXg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCtGQL8X/rrr.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vcSZsBJ9)



Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 20, 2020, 05:13:26 PM
not bad at all. those are fun cars to drive btw. so that shot of it sitting on its side, you can see the line the suspension pivots on and part of that is to min axle plunge during the stroke which again is prob 4" maybe 6" on the extreme. there are other factors at play but none that want for 12" travel

Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on August 21, 2020, 07:33:23 AM
theres a lot to it but simple answer is ......factory uses 4" of travel with a max of 6". 4" and still has bump steer, just controlable through power steering untill shock, struts and bushings wear.  moral of it..... dont do what they do lol lol you waant 12" travel so you need to build yours 3 times better.
Ummmm,those are rear hubs/arms. No bumpsteer will happen. They did them like that to get a camber change throughout vertical travel with the intent of improving handling performance during cornering.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 21, 2020, 10:14:25 AM
theres a lot to it but simple answer is ......factory uses 4" of travel with a max of 6". 4" and still has bump steer, just controlable through power steering untill shock, struts and bushings wear.  moral of it..... dont do what they do lol lol you waant 12" travel so you need to build yours 3 times better.
Ummmm,those are rear hubs/arms. No bumpsteer will happen. They did them like that to get a camber change throughout vertical travel with the intent of improving handling performance during cornering.

a camber change is one part of that rear suspension design. i have always called it bump steer, but i guess i dont know the true term. so  when i call it bump steer for rear suspension, i mean when it reacts like a front end that has bump steer issues. the efeects are less drastic in the rear but none the less very real.   this happens , on pass cars and truck rear ends, when the suspension is allowed/ moves beyond it intended use. the shocks are bad on my f350 dually, every larger bump i hit on the way back from witchita kicked my back end over a noticable amount.  uncontrolled steering moment is my definition of bump steer. the back end will get squirrly and can begin to dart left or right which will give most the sensation its the front. i have even seen/experienced this on 3x3 trailing arms rear ends. that is why i learned how to adjust them , after someone thought it was my front end that cause his bump steer.   with the rx8's rear end design as well as others of similar design, they are more proned to " bump steer" effects when suspension wears . i see this daily
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on August 21, 2020, 11:14:04 AM
I see what you are referring to but it isn't called bump steer.It's called wore the eff out crap that causes what you are referring to.   5: :D :D   Baloos question was why the different mounting points and it is simply to create camber change to improve cornering. Simple as that. On long travel rear suspensions it will also possibly limit travel due to increased outboard cv anglesas the suspension droops. I KNOW you know this but just wanted to clarify.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 21, 2020, 12:04:28 PM
 
I see what you are referring to but it isn't called bump steer.It's called wore the eff out crap that causes what you are referring to.   5: :D :D   Baloos question was why the different mounting points and it is simply to create camber change to improve cornering. Simple as that. On long travel rear suspensions it will also possibly limit travel due to increased outboard cv anglesas the suspension droops. I KNOW you know this but just wanted to clarify.

 LMAO

yes that angle on the uprights in baloo's pic is for geometry change. i did not answer that question in detail because it doesnt apply to a 12" stroke irs build.    the explanation i would have to type out to actually explain all the wild angles in that rearend would be lengthy.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 22, 2020, 04:20:40 AM
i got the jist of that boys

ive stripped what i want of the rx8

(https://i.postimg.cc/6prQXqHx/ttttt.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZvP0ycm)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xk0Pv4K/t.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5jwfbKSS)


and guess what  the drive shafts are not equal length    5:  anyway i guess i can just  use 2 drivers side ones to equal it up

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNw4zqwy/screenshot-301.png) (https://postimages.org/)

 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 22, 2020, 04:22:09 AM
i will  get the diff and driveshafts set up on  a bench and see what we can come up with  i guess i have to make a hub first ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 22, 2020, 06:13:46 AM
the pic above with what looks like an orange redish lower control arm, what did that come off of? it looks diff than the one rear end you just posted a pic of. those inner cv's on the pair of axles you just posted a pic of are what i call tri pod cv's https://en.oreca-store.com/gkn-tripod-cv-joint-24-splines-gi2600i.html what they look like. i do not know the correct name but they don't allow for higher angles. if your going to keep those then you'll need to see how far they will articulate or if there is a rating on them.  that complete rear end you pictured looks to have a bushinged tie rod which a lot of irs rear end designs have. this is why i used the term bump steer.  i like that irs rear end you have pictured. when you have time, pull a wheel and get a close up pic of the knuckle/ hub.  also i wonder what spline count is on the axle where it goes into the inner cv.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 22, 2020, 06:28:11 AM
maybe you can cut that tri pod cv housing and make some reg cv's cups to weld on to it. then could bolt 930 cv's on? i did something similar on a couple builds.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: fabr on August 22, 2020, 06:56:55 AM
I doubt there is any modern era car out there that doesn't have the entire drive train offset to the passenger side. Gives a bit extra room for the drivers feet. No one notices till they do something like this. Most just assume all is centered. I know I did once upon a time.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 22, 2020, 09:43:43 AM
the pic above with what looks like an orange redish lower control arm, what did that come off of? it looks diff than the one rear end you just posted a pic of. those inner cv's on the pair of axles you just posted a pic of are what i call tri pod cv's https://en.oreca-store.com/gkn-tripod-cv-joint-24-splines-gi2600i.html what they look like. i do not know the correct name but they don't allow for higher angles. if your going to keep those then you'll need to see how far they will articulate or if there is a rating on them.  that complete rear end you pictured looks to have a bushinged tie rod which a lot of irs rear end designs have. this is why i used the term bump steer.  i like that irs rear end you have pictured. when you have time, pull a wheel and get a close up pic of the knuckle/ hub.  also i wonder what spline count is on the axle where it goes into the inner cv.

hi
   the lower wishbone in the picture painted with red oxide primer is MX5,   mk 1 and mk 2   were like this 

(https://i.postimg.cc/MH4FtHM9/screenshot_66.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2mgCGvM/screenshot_90.png) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/NjRz7ggx/screenshot_74.png) (https://postimages.org/)

when the mk 3 mx5 came out it switched to the same floor pan as the RX8  so the most of the suspension is interchangeable,   now 5 link instead of A arms
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLxCjBsL/ttt.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mPdbKcyx)


will see what the standard cv's give in terms of wheel travel, can modify if  required ,   having trouble getting the driveshafts out of the hubs at the moment   tight little buggers   5:


Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 23, 2020, 04:29:00 AM
very interesting and you have quite the selection to choose from  ;D i hadn't heard of a mk3 either so very interesting. great pics
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 23, 2020, 11:47:56 AM
right i found a few hours to make some progress

(https://i.postimg.cc/qqV6mrWQ/p.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YGRS95rm)

(https://i.postimg.cc/N0FXFp18/pppppp.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/f34yg7qk)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sXZZ9xHv/ppppp.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/WFT3sNvv)

had to take the 9" grinder to the mazda hub to get it to fit in my home made press   but i dont need it anyway, i hope

(https://i.postimg.cc/fT7mr3zd/ppppppp.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qzRNtvCB)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 23, 2020, 11:49:54 AM

i seem to have around 15" of travel with out binding the cv's  using the stock drive shafts  so aiming for 12"  sounds ok to me ?
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 23, 2020, 11:55:38 AM
ds   can you share dimensions ?  how tall is your hub in the picture ?

im using the rx8 wheels i think so ive got lots of room in an 18" wheel

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs7TR1fw/DSCN0957.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKPMMCrB/pppp.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/d783M7g6)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 23, 2020, 12:05:41 PM
i was thinking of making some bearing carriers like this that will bolt into a hub  like yours  ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtXQ6Hrd/hub.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5QFLC96R)
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 23, 2020, 07:10:38 PM
thats great on the axle angle, sounds like 12" should be ok. provided you keep axle plunge to a min. i have never had any faith in the tri pod cv for offroad but try it and see. my wheel bearing carriers fit inside 15" rims so your 18's would be n o issue. i will measure them in a few.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 23, 2020, 07:34:02 PM
9 1/8" wide x 9 1/2"tall x 4" deep. 3 15/16" center hole.
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 31, 2020, 02:53:14 PM
hi
 right i got slowed up a bit,  had  to finish stripping the free RX8 that was clogging up the workshop  while it was upside down i made a jig to locate all the subframe fixing points and the shock mounts   you never know when it might come in useful  5:
  so the body shell is now ready to go  i robbed the seats the steering column and all the pedals etc


(https://i.postimg.cc/mrDw2dGx/wr3.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/68kRMf3z)

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5n4yL5Z/wr1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/PphDjf1w)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zjKgp98/wr2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/67CZg44K)

(https://i.postimg.cc/02YZtMC4/wr6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZCqrnq2P)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ncb0YYq7/wr10.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jCcHRfgd)

Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 31, 2020, 02:57:34 PM
then i went back to playing with the RX8 diff and drive shafts,   made a frame to hang the diff from to save it rolling round the bench

long drive shaft seems to move up and down 18" before i can feel it binding so 12" should be a safe bet ?

(https://i.postimg.cc/pLd865sV/xx.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/7fpfChvj)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzPgW9Hx/xxxxxx.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2b213xmx)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sXW5JFwp/xxxxxxxxxx.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0M8684gQ)

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2QNGHV2/xxxxxxxxx.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/64qyZGpx)

 
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: Baloo on August 31, 2020, 02:59:33 PM
ds   what distance do you have  vertically between the rose joints at the wheel end   and then again at the chassis end ?

and how long are your A arms  i think mine are looking like 23" long

thank you
Title: Re: car derived sxs
Post by: dsrace on August 31, 2020, 05:29:58 PM
nice progress!    so if your the distance  ( up and down ) from upper hiem mounts to lower is equal to the carrier. i do not produce more than -.5* camber in the rear. i also have less than 1/8" axle plunge.  i would say 12" seems to be a safe bet on those axle if you keep the plunge to a bare minimum. the only way to find out is to try it!!  ;D
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