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UTV's Off Road ( RZR, YXZ, Mini Buggy, Carts,etc.) => UTV Controls and Electrical => Topic started by: robndeb on January 13, 2009, 08:15:03 PM
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My buggy usually runs around 180 to 210 degrees. Once it even got to 230 degrees, but I think there was air in the cooling system that time. Anyway, I noticed that there didn't seem to be much air being produced by the fans. Looking at the wiring, I noticed they were wired in series. I didn't think this was right, so I rewired them in parallel, so each fan received 12 volts. They spun up a lot faster, so I thought all was good, no more running warm. Well, I hadn't run the car since I rewired the fans, until today when I changed the oil, and I noticed the voltage light on the Digidash was reading in the red, with the engine running and the fans on. If I reved it up a bit, it went back into the green, until I turned the lights on, then no matter what I did, it wouldn't come out of the red on the gauge. If I turned the fans off, it went back to green immediately, even with the lights on. Well, I put the fans back to being wired in series and all is good again with the electrical system. Are these fans supposed to be wired in parallel or in series? What should my normal operating temperature be? How many watts is the stock stator good for? Sorry for all the dumb questions, and thanks for any replies.
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series doubles the resistance so it draws less power. less power means less performance. parallel halves the resistance therefore draws more power and performs better. parallel would cool better, but it sounds like it is overtaxing your charging system. could you get away with one really good fan instead of running two? Fans should be wired with a thermoswitch and relay to be correct. IMO anyway.
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I would agree with boostin. I would try just one fan. With both fans running at half power, I would doubt that they move as much air as one running at full power. Just my opinion as well, but the only way to know would be to try it.
You could put the second fan on a manual switch for running only after some hard dunning...... And with it cooler at night, you may never need the second fan when the lights are on. I would run the second fan through the keyswitch, so it doesn't get forgotten and run the battery down.
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Also a shroud will help so you dont have "hot spots" on the radiator. You will increase the fans effectiveness and get more cooling from you radiator.
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It has a nice shroud for the twin fans. I may make a new shroud for just one of them and try it then.
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If it was me I would try just running one to see what happened before changing the shrouds.
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If you just want to try on I would block off the hole where the fan you are not running was with just a simple piece of cardboard and test it out. If you turn off the air will draw through it instead of the radiator. The air is gunna want to travel in the path of least resistance and the open fan will be it and you will not be moving all the air through the radiator. Very simple to test correctly.
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If it was me I would try just running one to see what happened before changing the shrouds.
Sounds like a plan, I will make a cover for the hole and just try one fan.
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It is only doing it at idle correct? so it is running the power low in the battery and the system can not keep up... How about just adding the hopped up voltage regulator...
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http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/press/2007-03-06High_Output_Hayabusa_Kit.pdf (http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/press/2007-03-06High_Output_Hayabusa_Kit.pdf)
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Heat takes time. Thats rule number one. Its why you need a thermostat in 97% of the systems to slow the coolant down in the radiator to bleed the heat out of it. (Unless the radiator is far to large) So one fan running at full power may move more air thru that part but air moving thru the whole radiator will sap out the heat. Some systems like the Yamaha Banshee are not built with a thermostat but the idea is the harder you run the motor the faster you are going and more air thru the radiator. They also run hot (tend too) and will usually overheat if left to idle for a bit. Its a balance. But in a bigger better system its more controlled for a desired resiult.
But for your electrical problem pop an amp meter in the line see what they are taking (might have to test each one individually depending on your meter). You might get away with a power increase in the charging system but you may also find two fans that use less juice are what might help you to. Have to figure the cost for each mod (better charging system VS less current fans) and see which is more cost effective and easier for you to implement.
Pop a pic of your fan setup up. Just cause. Just cause we like pics!
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If you just want to try on I would block off the hole where the fan you are not running was with just a simple piece of cardboard and test it out. If you turn off the air will draw through it instead of the radiator. The air is gunna want to travel in the path of least resistance and the open fan will be it and you will not be moving all the air through the radiator. Very simple to test correctly.
Nearly no air will flow through with only one fan running or removed from the shroud.The advise to run one with a sweitch on the other is IMO bad.Either beef the charging system for a few more amps or go to a higher performance single fan that draws fewer amps than the 2 combined do wired in parallel.
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Heat takes time. Thats rule number one. Its why you need a thermostat in 97% of the systems to slow the coolant down in the radiator to bleed the heat out of it. (Unless the radiator is far to large) So one fan running at full power may move more air thru that part but air moving thru the whole radiator will sap out the heat. Some systems like the Yamaha Banshee are not built with a thermostat but the idea is the harder you run the motor the faster you are going and more air thru the radiator. They also run hot (tend too) and will usually overheat if left to idle for a bit. Its a balance. But in a bigger better system its more controlled for a desired resiult.
But for your electrical problem pop an amp meter in the line see what they are taking (might have to test each one individually depending on your meter). You might get away with a power increase in the charging system but you may also find two fans that use less juice are what might help you to. Have to figure the cost for each mod (better charging system VS less current fans) and see which is more cost effective and easier for you to implement.
Pop a pic of your fan setup up. Just cause. Just cause we like pics!
Ditto.
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Just got back from Glamis, car ran warm the whole weekend. On slower rides, it ran between 200 and 210 degrees, on quicker rides, it ran between 190 and 200. Maybe a bit of a lean setting at lower rpm's? Anyway, I am looking for a new fan/shroud combo. I was thinking of one larger fan instead of two smaller ones.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx30%2Fdebnrob%2FIMG_0261.jpg&hash=f74ed110a26b91af067a574033a624ebe627be07)
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx30%2Fdebnrob%2FIMG_0249.jpg&hash=d4765d0786334316b270d3a65052870eaca0a6b7)
Both fans sound kinda sick, like they've ingested too much sand or something. Also, these fans are pushers not pullers. Does it make that much of a difference? The radiator is kinda close to the header for me to put the fans on the backside.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx30%2Fdebnrob%2FIMG_0252.jpg&hash=d654a90c59b51b478fde21e8e485a47e78dc98e7)
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Nothing wrong with 200-210.
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First I will agree 210 aint that hot. Pretty safe at that. Second I will ask is there a gap between the metal plate the fan are bolted to and the radiator? It kinda looks like there might be. If so then it will drag a lot of air in through there. (Or in your case of pushers blow it out.)
On the plus side pancake fans are usually for areas where its to tight. It looks like you can go with non panckae motors with ease. That might save you a lil bit.
Pullers pull more air than pushers push. Best to have pullers if you can. Some fans can be gotten with specail blades to be a pusher. VS just wiring them backwards when they are meant to be a puller.
Also nice pics. Good close ups. Can you snap a couple a little farther away so that we can see how the air flows into and aways from the radiator. Looking for the entire "airpath" if you will.
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Also a simple heat shield between the radiator and header might help a lil.
But what might be better for the heat and performance (They say) would be to get header wrap tape and wrap the headers. This will keep the heat in the headers and make that area cooler anyways. The wrap would be easier and quicker too. Might make some power benefits??
Add on note. I do realize of course these are set up as pushers and pushing the air towards the header. But eliminating any heat near it might help. Still need to see how the air gets to and from the radiator.
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WHy do anything.It's fine as is. ;D ;) ;) 8)
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Well sure if you wanna go off facts...... :P
Yah thats true unless his motors are grinding like he said. If they are going bad it might be also why hes using a bit of current in them.
Check the current they use now and see about fans that use less when new. Pancake or regualr style motor IF these are going bad.
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+1 on the header wrap. You also need to rethink that "shroud". you are blocking off a good portion of the radiator with that plate the fans are mounted to. You are also forcing those fans to blow through an area the size of thier diameter that is obstructed by fins and tubes. That is going to make them draw more amps. I would space that whole plate out about 1.5" to 2" and make a lip to go around it. That will better utilize the whole surface of the radiator and allow the fans to work better and draw less amps. look under the hood of any car, the shroud spaces the fan out from the radiator to allow it to work better.
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Good catch/idea there Boost on the shroud. Your logic of the coverage of the radiator makes me wonder if you got pointy ears. Good stuff.
Also love the moped.
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pointy ears?
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Very true boost but again why fix something thats not broken.If the fans ARE going bad and it staysat 200-210 then all he needs do is replace the fans. Your advise is VERY good though for designing a shroud.
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pointy ears?
Ever watch StarTrek? Spock...... Vulcan...... Logical. ;D
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Sorry.
Pointy ears as in logical like Spock.
I aint a dyed in the wool trek head But alwasy liked Spock the best. Except when Kirk was beating the snot out of someone. That was fun.
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First I will agree 210 aint that hot. Pretty safe at that. Second I will ask is there a gap between the metal plate the fan are bolted to and the radiator? It kinda looks like there might be. If so then it will drag a lot of air in through there. (Or in your case of pushers blow it out.)
On the plus side pancake fans are usually for areas where its to tight. It looks like you can go with non panckae motors with ease. That might save you a lil bit.
Pullers pull more air than pushers push. Best to have pullers if you can. Some fans can be gotten with specail blades to be a pusher. VS just wiring them backwards when they are meant to be a puller.
Also nice pics. Good close ups. Can you snap a couple a little farther away so that we can see how the air flows into and aways from the radiator. Looking for the entire "airpath" if you will.
The fan shroud bolts to the radiator on raised nubs, leaving a 1/2 inch gap. I've replaced the crappy double stick foam that was on there when I got it to some nice rubber weather strip, sealing it up pretty good. I haven't seen any non pancake fans for sale anywhere, I wonder who has them? There is absolutely no natural airflow to the fans, the seats are touching each other, leaving no gap.
(https://dtsfab.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi181.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fx30%2Fdebnrob%2FIMG_0115.jpg&hash=270d928f49b0b2b10337c2e2628fa97f6a3025cc)
My wife forgot to turn the fans on and in a minute the temp got up to 215, she remembered to turn the fans on and in a few more minutes it was back to 200. There is plenty of room to redesign my shroud, moving it out away from the radiator. I guess I'll try my hand at sheet metal fabrication! Any suggestions on some quality fan/fans?
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The fan shroud bolts to the radiator on raised nubs, leaving a 1/2 inch gap. I've replaced the crappy double stick foam that was on there when I got it to some nice rubber weather strip, sealing it up pretty good. I haven't seen any non pancake fans for sale anywhere, I wonder who has them? There is absolutely no natural airflow to the fans, the seats are touching each other, leaving no gap. My wife forgot to turn the fans on and in a minute the temp got up to 215, she remembered to turn the fans on and in a few more minutes it was back to 200.
Sounds like it works ok...... Can you put a thermostatically controlled switch on so you don't have to watch it?
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As soon as I start the engine, I turn on the fans, they stay on constantly.
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Very true boost but again why fix something thats not broken.
I was looking at the current draw as the main problem needing an answer. I think the fans are prolly fine, just poorly installed. You might consider folding the mounting plat in the center so that each fan trys to pull the air from around the outside of the seats. Those two fans, even if they are cheapies should provide enough air if installed correctly.
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They ARE providing enough air AS IS.The thing stays in the correct water temp range.What more is needed?????????? Nothing. True there may be better ways to shroud fans and if we want to turn this into a thread about best practices fine but Rob does not have a problem IMO in the least so WHY do anything different???????
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As soon as I start the engine, I turn on the fans, they stay on constantly.
WIre it direct to the ignition switch through a relay.Rewire the fans to be parallel if you wish and forget it.No need for anything more unless you just want to do some sheetmetal for practice. IMO ,again,don't fix what's not broken.
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True there may be better ways to shroud fans and if we want to turn this into a thread about best practices fine but Rob does not have a problem IMO in the least so WHY do anything different???????
He asked for help which tells me he thinks he has a problem. I thought you were a stickler for doing things right? The shroud in my opinion is the problem. Fix that and it will run cooler, draw less power, and the fans will last longer before wearing out. Even if it doesn't need "fixed" I would say it would be a good improvement anyway. If your brakes hardly work but still slow you down, is that good enough? Or would you fix them?
Here is a simple experiment that will either prove I am right or wrong. Wire the fans up parallel. put your meter on them and turn them on, record reading. Then unbolt the shroud and hold it away from the radiator so the air can flow freely and take another reading, I bet it draws less amps and you should be able to hear the fans running faster. simple and free way to tell what corrective measures need to be taken.
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WIre it direct to the ignition switch through a relay.Rewire the fans to be parallel if you wish and forget it.No need for anything more unless you just want to do some sheetmetal for practice. IMO ,again,don't fix what's not broken.
I'm glad that my temps are within normal specs. I'll keep things as they are and just replace the fans with new ones. I don't like the way that they sound, slight grinding noises. Now just to find the best performing fans that draw the least amount of power. ;D
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Being I am not there seeing this I gotta say a couple things. First. I do agree a good bit with Fabr that it seems to be ok and thus might not need more love.
BUT as noted in another thread on this board IF the fans are wired in series like you first mentioned and one of them DOES fail the other will stop. (Unless it shorts directly across the bad fan then the remaining fan will get 12 volts! Which would help it draw more air. I would not count on this!!)
Going to parellel as you tried made current an issue it seemed on your charging system. Also noted with lights on and parellel it was having issues. So that might limit night riding. If you do that. They boot us out of the Silver Lake dunes here in Michigan right after dark so you cannot do much night riding. We used to get out earlier to get in line (yah we have a tiny parking lot here and have to get in line to get in if there is any real crowd. It sucks!) But when I first went to Glamis we would go out a lot at night and it was intensly fun!
One other thing I noticed that I did not see was you never mentioned what the ambient AIR temps were while you were riding around? (I don't think I missed that?? I even relooked) If it was cooler those days then a few degrees cooler will make a buggy run a good bit cooler. But you get a hot day it might not cool as well. Forget about a good run some night when your friends want to go and its hot. That would be a bummer. (assuming fans wired in parrellel and trying to run the lights. I know you put them back to series. But will series cool enough on hot days/nights??)
Plus if your taxing the electrical system and burn it out you might be sitting a good ways from camp. If you do not have someone to tow you out and leave your rail there to walk out I have heard of dipweeds finding brokedown rails at Glamis and stealing them or at least stuff off of them. Not good. Tires are easy to steal and hard to ID on another rail racing by.
You might find fans that bolt to the shroud you have just as it is if you simply replace them. But if not and you need to modify it why not do a bit more while at it?
You could make the whole system a little better and thats never a bad thing if you tired some simple mods to the shroud as mentioned. Including a separator strip that would isolate the two fans in the middle of the shroud so that you could run only one if needed and take it easy to get back to camp. (A soft strip of seal that goes right to the fins and touches the shroud between the fans) Plus the mentioned ways of allowing the fans to draw air through the whole radiator area. Not just the fan diameter. (Edit: this should have read push air not drawn in this case.)
Get lower current draw fans that are set up to be pushers (the blades MADE to be a pusher. That makes a big differance in air flow!). If the place you get parts from says they do not exist then ask for better help or go to another store.
As noted it may be fine with just new fans if these are ailing but the little bit of work to make it more reliable would be worth it VS the extra heat. Plus if you ever try to boost motor power then you will need more cooling for sure. Even a day of hill climbing drags as it is now with friends may make it run hot and make you sit and watch and cool down while they play. Its a matter of if that may be ok with you IF it happens to happen. But it would be more fun to have it do what you want. Not the other way around. (Sorry Fabr! ;) ) Its just my thoughts on it.
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The fans are definitely being replaced. I will wire the new fans in parallel, just for safety. More charging capacity is my real issue. Who makes a good high output stator? Are they easily replaced?
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Being I am not there seeing this I gotta say a couple things. First. I do agree a good bit with Fabr that it seems to be ok and thus might not need more love.
BUT as noted in another thread on this board IF the fans are wired in series like you first mentioned and one of them DOES fail the other will stop. (Unless it shorts directly across the bad fan then the remaining fan will get 12 volts! Which would help it draw more air. I would not count on this!!)
Going to parellel as you tried made current an issue it seemed on your charging system. Also noted with lights on and parellel it was having issues. So that might limit night riding. If you do that. They boot us out of the Silver Lake dunes here in Michigan right after dark so you cannot do much night riding. We used to get out earlier to get in line (yah we have a tiny parking lot here and have to get in line to get in if there is any real crowd. It sucks!) But when I first went to Glamis we would go out a lot at night and it was intensly fun!
One other thing I noticed that I did not see was you never mentioned what the ambient AIR temps were while you were riding around? (I don't think I missed that?? I even relooked) If it was cooler those days then a few degrees cooler will make a buggy run a good bit cooler. But you get a hot day it might not cool as well. Forget about a good run some night when your friends want to go and its hot. That would be a bummer. (assuming fans wired in parrellel and trying to run the lights. I know you put them back to series. But will series cool enough on hot days/nights??)
Plus if your taxing the electrical system and burn it out you might be sitting a good ways from camp. If you do not have someone to tow you out and leave your rail there to walk out I have heard of dipweeds finding brokedown rails at Glamis and stealing them or at least stuff off of them. Not good. Tires are easy to steal and hard to ID on another rail racing by.
You might find fans that bolt to the shroud you have just as it is if you simply replace them. But if not and you need to modify it why not do a bit more while at it?
You could make the whole system a little better and thats never a bad thing if you tired some simple mods to the shroud as mentioned. Including a separator strip that would isolate the two fans in the middle of the shroud so that you could run only one if needed and take it easy to get back to camp. (A soft strip of seal that goes right to the fins and touches the shroud between the fans) Plus the mentioned ways of allowing the fans to draw air through the whole radiator area. Not just the fan diameter. (Edit: this should have read push air not drawn in this case.)
Get lower current draw fans that are set up to be pushers (the blades MADE to be a pusher. That makes a big differance in air flow!). If the place you get parts from says they do not exist then ask for better help or go to another store.
As noted it may be fine with just new fans if these are ailing but the little bit of work to make it more reliable would be worth it VS the extra heat. Plus if you ever try to boost motor power then you will need more cooling for sure. Even a day of hill climbing drags as it is now with friends may make it run hot and make you sit and watch and cool down while they play. Its a matter of if that may be ok with you IF it happens to happen. But it would be more fun to have it do what you want. Not the other way around. (Sorry Fabr! ;) ) Its just my thoughts on it.
All good advise and can't argue with it.
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All the power you could want.
http://hayabusaalternator.com/home.html (http://hayabusaalternator.com/home.html)
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Sweet, a bit pricey though. :(
Maybe if I have enough left over from my tax return. ;)
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The fans are definitely being replaced. I will wire the new fans in parallel, just for safety. More charging capacity is my real issue. Who makes a good high output stator? Are they easily replaced?
http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/press/2007-03-06High_Output_Hayabusa_Kit.pdf (http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/press/2007-03-06High_Output_Hayabusa_Kit.pdf)
270.00 bux....
Rick's Motorsport Electrics
30 Owens Ct. Suite 2
Hampstead NH 03841
Toll Free 800-521-0277
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Hey Bugpac is there anything you can't get or find....
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I got bored today and tore apart the fan motors. The halves of the motors needed to be pried apart, some kind of glue was used to seal them. One motor's brushes were almost worn down to nothing. The other one looked new, just full of dirt. I sprayed the good one out really well with electrical cleaner and re-lubed the bearings and reassembled it. I modified my original shroud to house the single fan in the center, and since the fan gets all 12 volts now, seems to put out more air than when both of the fans were wired in series. I started the engine, turned on the single fan and turned on the lights, all good on the volt gauge. I let it idle for a half of an hour and it never got above 180 degrees. I can't wait till President's weekend in Glamis to test it out. ;D
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did it get hot idling before? sounds like you got a workable solution.
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I agree, fan #2 was probbaly drawing a shit load of amps to...
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did it get hot idling before? sounds like you got a workable solution.
When I had both of the fans on there, wired in series so to not overload the electrical system, it did get hotter than 180. But I think one of my fans was shot out.
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I'm anxious to hear the report as well, I think you did good... ;D
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Went out on a day trip today after work and the results were awesome.
Left fan off until engine temp was at 210 degrees and then turned it on.........
Engine temp want down slowly to 160 degrees and 20 lbs of oil pressure.
Did that same cycle three times in a row and the lowest the engine temp went to was
165 degrees and the lowest the oil temp went to was 15 lbs. During a hard run, with
the fan on, the highest the temp got to was 190 degrees. When left to idle, the temps
went down quickly. Now, since I think I've got the cooling system squared away, What
kind of automatic thermostats are the best for these temps? I currently have to turn on the fan on manually.
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They make adjustable switches and preset ones. Look at jegs and summit
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http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/826500/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/826500/10002/-1)
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That's cool.Just curious what are the radiators dimensions?
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Went out on a day trip today after work and the results were awesome.
Left fan off until engine temp was at 210 degrees and then turned it on.........
Engine temp want down slowly to 160 degrees and 20 lbs of oil pressure.
Did that same cycle three times in a row and the lowest the engine temp went to was
165 degrees and the lowest the oil temp went to was 15 lbs. During a hard run, with
the fan on, the highest the temp got to was 190 degrees. When left to idle, the temps
went down quickly. Now, since I think I've got the cooling system squared away, What
kind of automatic thermostats are the best for these temps? I currently have to turn on the fan on manually.
enemy set me up with one of these and he runs one as well. I really like this kit, there is one part of the instructions that is wrong. the switch wiring in the instructions is backwards or atleast the copy I got was.
I am using the one on the right hand side of the page on my 3800 v-6 and enemy has a busa.
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/electric-fan-accessories.html (http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/electric-fan-accessories.html)
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here is one on jegs but mine came with a sensor that bolted into the water jacket just like the stock temp sensor.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Flex-a-lite/752453/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/p/Flex-a-lite/752453/10002/-1)
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That's cool.Just curious what are the radiators dimensions?
Measuring the cooling surface, without the tanks, it is 12 inches tall and 18 inches wide.
With the twin fans on there, they overlapped the tanks a bit, kind of a waste.
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here is one on jegs but mine came with a sensor that bolted into the water jacket just like the stock temp sensor.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Flex-a-lite/752453/10002/-1 (http://www.jegs.com/p/Flex-a-lite/752453/10002/-1)
That one is very nice!
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I would try to get one that comes on at 200 or even 190 not sure how busas like heat, then shuts off 20 degrees lower... Imo your turning it on manually to high, and letting it get to cool, 50 degree temp change IMO is to much...