2F/1R rollover tendency > Solution?

[Nutz4sand]

Aside from the tippyness Fabr the three wheelers could not hold the tail end behind themselves in corners. Even today a car with two WIDE tires back there will loose the tail end in a microsecond. One tire only cannot provide the grip. Especially the tires they had in those days. 

EDIT: I should say the reverse three wheelers. One tire aint enough back there. Heck two are not most of the time.

[Grimm Reaper Racing]

You can say my idea of driving the rear tire with a CVT is an opinion but I would ask of you or anyone to show a better system that senses load requirements and applies power?

ESPECIALLY at the cost it would take to rig up a decent CVT. 

I do see what Boost is talking about if I understand right. He is talking about the Toyota wagon tranny (also used on sedans) with the all-trac (Toyotas AWD system of yesteryear)  and to run a shaft back to a shaft drive motor bike kinda of gearbox. Very good idea indeed. Quite possible the only one able to compete with or beat the CVT to the rear tire idea.

Sorry about the "Friction" partz.

I don't know, but I think you just answered your own challange.

I was just stating the obvious.  It was an opinion, not fact.  I on the other hand know there are any number of solutions to a problem.  As an engineer, this is how I make my living.



If you can remember your history lessons, you may recall many inventors/ engineers/ fabricators being chastised for their thoughts and ideas.  Hell Thomas Edison's own family nearly had him committed to a mental institution for his "light bulb experiments" 

My favorite example is a man by the name of Nikola Telsa.  He was an arrogant man, who died penniless and friendless.  Yet he was a genius who we should all be giving our thanks to.

I am not saying the JimmieD is a genius nor am I saying he is the next Tesla, what I am saying is stranger things have happened.

Also, I have read this thread and I think it is my interpretation that JimmieD is making his three wheeler to toodle around, not race the thing.  So lets help him accomplish that.

As for all of the 3 wheeler vs 4 wheeler "conspiracy stuff"  We will probably never no for sure, but one thing is for sure, watching 3 wheeler crash footage is a riot. and who knows, maybe Jimmie will have some more of that footage to show us.

My humble opinion stinks just like everyone else's, but I'm going to throw it out there, so here it is...

A 4 wheeler is better than a 3 wheeler, but a 2 wheeler kicks all of their asses.

That is a little shout out to all of you guys who have ever raced em... you too Spec!   

[Nutz4sand]

Most people know there can be many solutions to an issue. No big there.

So how would you go about it? Powering the third rear wheel? Curious if you have any ideas on that matter.

This is a tad off topic but I agree Nikola Tesla was a genius we may never see again. But not so sure we should be giving a lot of thanks too. His "work" was leading to tapping into things of a powerful nature most of us barely grasp if at all.

Yet his work led to energetic weapons. Are we supposed to be thankful for that?

I wish he was smart enough to get his work out into the right hands. But he sent it to the wrong ones (G-ments of the world) by all accounts of what I have read and heard on him. If you know better please enlighten me.



   

[Islander]

I'm with Boost on how to power the third wheel, with a bit of a different version.  What about using a Subaru engine and trans, you'd have centered weight, a proven combo and the low profile of the boxer engine. 

Kudo's for trying to think out of the box, but I'd still take 2 or 4 wheels over three any day!  Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Grimm Reaper Racing]

I personally would not use two different CVT's for the front and rear drives.  I for one am not a fan of the CVT.  I pretty much don't like anything that is belt driven.  I like the control of a gear box.  So lets start with that much for sure. 

If I had no choice but to use a CVT, I'd only use one, and couple it to a gear box that had F N R.  Similar to that of most Polaris 4 wheelers. 

I like the idea of a limited slip front axle.  As for the rear drive, I'd probably use a shaft driven design similar to that of Honda motorcycles.  I still don't understand why anyone wants to build a 3 wheeler.  I had a 250R as a kid, that thing damn near killed me.  It sucked it the snow and mud, and worst of all, in was so squirrely on tight corners, and when you pegged the throttle in the corner it would come up on the pin and two tires would be off of the ground.  It was mad fun, but not safe for off road racing.

To be honest... If I was crazy enough to build a three wheeler, I'd drive it on the road and that was it.  To make it light weight, easy to work on ect.  I'd use a donor sport bike, and chain drive from the bike and make a new swing arm and rear suspension.   That is how I'd do it.  Just my opinion.

[fabr]

  OK,I'm fooking tired of deleting shit and bullshit from this thread. It's fooking ridiculous and unproductive. The topic is legitimate and has a lot that could/should be discussed and ideas presented along with logical,rational reasonings as to why it will/will not work are very welcome. Present your fooking ideas and opinions at will but knock the BS off.  You guys want to hurl insults -USE THE FOOKING PM SYSTYEM! 

[Boostinjdm]

You guys want to hurl insults -USE THE FOOKING PM SYSTYEM! 

You have a PM.....

[fabr]

I'm going to step out on a limb here and say that a 3 wheeler does have some advantages especially in the area of turn radius to make tight parking easier in congested aresa and they can be built to minimal standards to keep them light and basic utilitarian transportation.  BUT,I DO NOT agree that there is any advantage to anything with 3 wheels off road. In fact I can see nothing but negatives off road. Any of us that have been off roading with motorcycles or quads or old school 3 WHEELERS,yes boys and girls there were some long ago before many members here were born, 3 wheels offroad only mean that 1 of the 3 are always in the deepest part of the trail. That sux big time. Just the way it is. So ,I saw the guy wants to use it primarily on road for an occasional jaunt off road so what's wrong with that? Nothing in my opinion. Trying to convince us it's going to be superior off road is an exercise in futility. However ,if he builds it and proves us wrong then he will be entitled to publicly make fun of us as often as he wishes. LOL!! Let's all try to keep in mind that what works on road may well be a POS off road. So far the 3 wheel design off road have not caught on for a variety of reasons. Let's discuss those reasons rationally.

[fabr]

T-Rex was on "How its Made" this morning. For only $50K you can have one of them.

[JimmieD]

Thanks for replies. Don't want to get too wordy answering all, but: shooting for a very low Center of Gravity. I have a Honda 3W that I reworked, lowered everything in back to drop the seat height by about 5"-or 6". Helped lots with the tippy, but still a dangerous thing to ride. Problem there is COG and track: thing is too high off the ground & rears too close together.

No plans for a CV belt drive, had one on another rig & it sucked 100% until speed was topped out, flaky there too. Doing chain drive off one front axle, through limited slip, to rear. Selectable for driven rear or not, plus L/S in front, close to a locker but adjustable too. Chain drive eliminates possible torque twist from shaft drive, and way cheaper.

Yep, there are MUCH better drivetrains I'd like to use than the '86 Omni, but serious po' folks here, and the Omni is here & free! Has a 5 speed, one of the better ones, but not their best & I modified the engine to take Webers. Built a distributor out of a Mopar V8 disto to dump the computerized crap & use older Mopar electronic ignition. Have a turbo for it too.

On the plus side Mopar built many FWD off this design and it's really easy to bolt in a whole world of power later if I can afford to. Realistic 300+ out of a 2.8L 4 banger, not bad in a 1,000+ lbs car!

2F/1R is entirely different handling and performance than a trike. Trikes don't handle for nothin', but FWD powertrain can in 2F/1R layout. Another major reason for 3 wheeler is registration, inspection, SMOG requirements [in California] insurance & vehicle codes: it gets licensed as a special built motorcycle, not a car! Regs are lights & brakes, that's about it. Huge advantage $$$.

Offroad use for me will be low speed, just mild adventuring, no more of the roostertails, whoops and airborne ect. just old fart meandering. For transportation I expect around 60mpg, as the Omni got 42mpg weighing 2,000 lbs more and with poor aerodynamics.

So, I guess we'll see how it all turns out?

[fabr]

I guess I'm stil not sure what you mean 2F1R. Are you planning on powering only 1 of the 2 front wheels? Or are you saying use a front wheel drive set up conventionally and somehow selecting 1 rear wheel drive at will?   I really really don't see the need for the rear to drive it for the purpose you describe but it's your project. Will it work?  Well,yes. Will it work well or better than a 4 wheeled vehicle? I doubt it.  If it were me I'd just drive the Omni and be tickled pink with 42MPG.   The thing that bothers me about your plan is the lack of funds. I can tell you first hand the costs of blazing your own path in the offroad world are quite high and without them many plans fail.  Anyway keep us posted on the progress of this unique plan.

[odypilots]

Anyone that continues to debate with JimmyD, just refer to Master's sig line:

"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did. So throw off the bowlines.  Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream."  ~Mark Twain


He wants to build it, he will build it. Help him make it better.

Sooooo,... what do you think of outrigger wheels that touch down at mild angles, maybe 25 degrees, but were mounted on suspension arms,  allowing a rising rate set up that would stiffen at extreme tip angles. It would seem to work best on pavement, uneven terrain could upset the car with a big hit on the outrigger wheel alone. Or riggers that were deployed after some limit is achieved.

[fabr]

Personally ,I see no need nor do i see them safely working at all. 3 wheels are as stable as neeeded for the stated use of this project. I can also only see those outriggers snagging a pothole or perhaps a curb. If the tires on those outriggers are smaller diameter they will tend to snag,at least momentarily any obstacle instead of smoothly engaging. If this is built I can see 3 wheels working but 5? Nope. Think of it this way: those 2 extra "stabilizer wheels" will have to be no more than casters and as such will act as a pivoting wheel and encourage a spinout if they do make contact. Overall ,3 wheels will work but IMO the 2 extras are a very bad idea that at first thoughht seems like a good idea.

[Grimm Reaper Racing]

I agree with you Fabr,

The only time I've seen outriggers on a vehicle that worked really well were on a recumbent type 2 passenger motorcycle that deployed them at slow speeds because their feet couldn't touch the ground when they came to a stop as it was a monocoque design.

Outriggers would make for some really cool crash footage though for sure. 

[fabr]

I agree with you Fabr,

The only time I've seen outriggers on a vehicle that worked really well were on a recumbent type 2 passenger motorcycle that deployed them at slow speeds because their feet couldn't touch the ground when they came to a stop as it was a monocoque design.

Outriggers would make for some really cool crash footage though for sure. 

You got that right. AS for the 3 wheel design it's not my cup of tea but I can't say it won't work. I do say that offroad it will leave something to be desired,IMO,---like a 4th wheel. LOL!!! Probably nothing wrong for a 3 wheel road vehicle tho if that's what turns you on.