DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
The Machine Shop => Welding/Cutting/Bending/Forming => Topic started by: Nutz4sand on December 27, 2010, 10:34:15 PM
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http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/projects-progress/14354-fab-school-i-want-build-buggy-3.html (http://www.minibuggy.net/forum/projects-progress/14354-fab-school-i-want-build-buggy-3.html)
Do you agree with Gregrachelle or think hes wrong?
His talking about using tak tak welding as a pulse for a good weld.
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Typical for over there...A 3 second burst? rofl
1-1=thousand
2-1-thousand
3-1 thousand
BBBBBBWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Any of the places I worked at if you did shit like that you'd be out the fooken door, But then again...peoples lives were at stake...not bullshit bragging rights nono
Set the fooken machine right then weld the shit up
There are times when pulsing the trigger are necessary, thin material, bad fit
Thick material and a big gap...But best off to fit the weldment right then weld like a big boy
They talk like they are 1st year welding course in hi-school flunky's who haven't discovered there are different sizes of wire and different dash numbers to those different sizes of wire...and those little knobs on the front of the machine...turning them makes it act differently 5: :j
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"If the metal turns red, you just ruined it." WTF steel always turns red on its way to and from the liquid state where the welding gets done. You just don't see it. kick
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Holy fook.... they ruined my steel while making it rofl LMAO rofl LMAO
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likely the guy is going off his experience only - sounds as if he works at a body shop with the majority of his metal being thin?
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And the thing is he was taught this in fab school. Sheet metal work, yes to keep from distorting, but structural, everything I've heard is no. I seem to recall some guys taking a big kick for that.
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The guy went to a "fab school" that specializes in teaching techniques that even idiots can master. That's their PURPOSE and OBJECTIVE. That doesn't mean it's the best way. No one really thinks that they will teach the best or most difficult to master techniques do they? In other words ,they are teaching to the lowest common denominator of skills. Ever watch a true master weld two aluminum pop cans together? It sure as hell isn't pulsed.
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+1
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Pulse welding has its place, (usually not stressed members) it looks real nice, but the main challenge is getting the penetration you need, typically you have to run the welder on a much higher setting to achieve good penetration and you have to burn it in as long as you can without building a lump. One of the biggest mistakes I see people make when MIG welding is trying to make it look tight and small like TIG. MIG is a large weld if done correcdtly, PERIOD. Some of his welds look OK, but I would be willing to bet most would fail before the tube and you know what that means........a pipe to the head in a roll over!! The best way I have found to get the same look is constant welding and you move forward in 1/8"ish increments and hold and burn in for a second then move on, looks BEAUTIFUL if done right, you just need to practice! The whole swirl thing really doesn't work..
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MBN = Mind Boggeling Numbnuts
If you are going to weld your frame like that paint it black.
Cause your going to die in that Mofo.
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The guy went to a "fab school" that specializes in teaching techniques that even idiots can master. That's their PURPOSE and OBJECTIVE. That doesn't mean it's the best way. No one really thinks that they will teach the best or most difficult to master techniques do they? In other words ,they are teaching to the lowest common denominator of skills. Ever watch a true master weld two aluminum pop cans together? It sure as hell isn't pulsed.
Nope it's hi freq and no filler rod, if mig it's a hissing roll fest, since the top can supplys the filler to the bottom can thick pushed towards the thin
MMMMMM how'd I know that
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I like to swirl sometimes to make sure plenty of heat is getting in both parts. Nothing worse than a nice looking bead that doesn't look like it flowed into one of the parts. Worst in tight spots where you can't get the proper nozzle angle.
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Nope it's hi freq and no filler rod, if mig it's a hissing roll fest, since the top can supplys the filler to the bottom can thick pushed towards the thin
MMMMMM how'd I know that
Might be how you would do it but I've seen a man do it with "filler rod" made from cut strips of the cans and ran the weld at 5 amps on a Miller Sq wave machine set up with lowest percent of input to workpiece. .
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MBN = Mind Boggeling Numbnuts
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl
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Most Build Nothing
Might Break Now
Most Boring Nerds
Men Being Nitwits
Might Be Necraphiliacs
Must Beleive Nonsense
Most Brown Nose
Masturbate Between Naps
Masterfabr's Best Neighbor :laugh:
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Most Build Nothing
Might Break Now
Most Boring Nerds
Men Being Nitwits
Might Be Necraphiliacs
Must Beleive Nonsense
Most Brown Nose
Masturbate Between Naps
Masterfabr's Best Neighbor :laugh:
There,fixed. ;D ;D
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Little disgruntled welder pat?
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Dang Nutz, got the MBN thread closed. rofl rofl
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Yah I know.
I hate to say it but at times they tend to close threads over there cause someone is a little cheesed at you for pissing in somones cheerios.
The guys still knows tack tack is good though. I am crazy. Nutz
P.S. The school he went to has there hands in some high end off road shit so they MUST be right!
Thats like saying politicians must have our best interests at hand so thats why they ran for office!
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The one thing that pisses me off more than anything about this whole thread is now some nice guy somewhere is going to use this piece of $h!t practice on his buggy, and get hurt.
FOOKIN IDIOT!!!!!!!!
Last I checked Wyotech wasn't a welding school. All I can say is if you have a question about welding ask a real professional who has had real training. Like someone who has gone threw Lincoln's school of welding, or the military, or Millers welding school, or the Iron workers union, or if at the vary least someone with a D11 welding cert.
If I showed up at the next IBWA (Iowa Blacksmiths & Weldors Association) meeting and told them of this crap, they would probably fall out of their chairs laughing at me, and then kick me out of the organization.
This process should not be used on anthing structural, IT WILL CAUSE POROSITY. If anyone doesn't believe me, make a sample up, send it to me, and I will personally take it to ISU's CNDE (Center for Non-Destructive Evaluation) Lab and have it analyzed for free. They will do up to 48 hours of testing a year for us, as we do lots of work for them.
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Set the fooken machine right then weld the shit up
There are times when pulsing the trigger are necessary, thin material, bad fit
Thick material and a big gap...But best off to fit the weldment right then weld like a big boy
+1 to Spec
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Yah I know.
I hate to say it but at times they tend to close threads over there cause someone is a little cheesed at you for pissing in somones cheerios.
The guys still knows tack tack is good though. I am crazy. Nutz
P.S. The school he went to has there hands in some high end off road shit so they MUST be right!
Thats like saying politicians must have our best interests at hand so thats why they ran for office!
LOL!!! They ban people for the same reason also. ;) ;) ;D ;D
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This pulse shit all started with piss poor aluminum welders. Machines were developed to allow those cheap labor/ piss poor welders to successfully weld things such as ally radiators. SOMEONE thought it looked good and VIOLA! we have a new POS welding technique that the untalented in this world could do. THAT'S why fab schools teach that shit. But like spec said,there are times when that's the only way to weld up a piss poor fitment. It's also the only time it should be used,IMO.
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;D
When I went to school, one of my instructors was a semi reired aviaion welder and pilot, That's how I got in at lockheed...As an instructor he was a total nitpicking prick...But you learned to weld and to fit PROPPERLY
But I agree with what fabr said as well...Today hey want the machine to do all the work and ake the skill and talent out of the equasion...To save on labor costs
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Just remember, you get what you pay for, if your lucky.
I have no problem with anyone who can do something for less than me, they know what they're worth.
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Just remember, you get what you pay for, if your lucky.
I have no problem with anyone who can do something for less than me, they know what they're worth.
Usualy people that work for less per hour cost more to do the job cause they take to long.
False economy.
Pay the pro get the job done right and on time.
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Usualy people that work for less per hour cost more to do the job cause they take to long.
False economy.
Pay the pro get the job done right and on time.
This is a little off topic.., But pertaines to the false economy, 3M built a plant in juwarez the shithole city...They had to build a wall around the compound, get armor plated vehicles for the american employees, and come up with other ways to transport other employees safely to and from work, Barb's old boss was chased several times for abduction or theft reasons...he quit his 100 grand a year job and took a lesser one
Plus the revolving door mexican employees...and lesser quality product due to dipshits that can't follow simple instructions...IF THEY SHOW UP TO WORK...So The point is...3m shot themselves in the foot there...lost over 300 jobs at the stillwater plant...lost profits from the warez plant and added expenses, to protect employees, to get a lesser product
FALSE ECONOMY thumb down
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OK Back on topic....
The scary part about this type of welding is that the major sand rail manufacturers USE it!! I know for a FACT that Extreme sand cars uses this EVEN on the SPINDLES! My good friend rolled his car slightly and the spindle TORE away from the base metal and you could STILL SEE THE LAZER CUT MARKS on the plate!!
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OK Back on topic....
The scary part about this type of welding is that the major sand rail manufacturers USE it!! I know for a FACT that Extreme sand cars uses this EVEN on the SPINDLES! My good friend rolled his car slightly and the spindle TORE away from the base metal and you could STILL SEE THE LAZER CUT MARKS on the plate!!
IF you have PICS of that I WANT THEM! Indeedy I do!
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OK Back on topic....
The scary part about this type of welding is that the major sand rail manufacturers USE it!! I know for a FACT that Extreme sand cars uses this EVEN on the SPINDLES! My good friend rolled his car slightly and the spindle TORE away from the base metal and you could STILL SEE THE LAZER CUT MARKS on the plate!!
If these Ya-Whoos would learn to stick weld, that kind of crap wouldn't happen. IMO
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I don't even own a MIG. I stick everything steel with a 40 year old crackerbox Sears AC welder and 1/16" 6013 for anything 16 ga. and under. For 14 ga.-11ga. I use 5/64" 6013.
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Master, you tacked your frame with stick then tiged it. Or stick the whole thing?
My first welder, a cheap POS chinese flux, welded some side rails on a trailer with. Looked like a flock of birds flew over and took a crap on my work. 12 coats of paint looked ok bs1 rofl bs1 til rachet strap pull the sides off. rofl Redid whole thing with my current welder. I now trust my head with my welds.
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NO,I tack with TIG and then fully weld TIG. I refuse to stick tack 4130. MIG would be a LOT simpler for tacking tho. I only stick mild steel thin wall tube and thinner sheet. IF I had a MIG I'd still likely use the stick just for general welding. BUT,for the cost of a MIG I can stick a lot of stuff together,IMO better also, with the stick and the only drawback is the slag removal. FWIW,I will never use MIG for final welding of anything my ass rides in. Again,just my opinion but, TIG is the ONLY way to go ,for me,since I build my frames from 4130.
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I don't even own a MIG. I stick everything steel with a 40 year old crackerbox Sears AC welder and 1/16" 6013 for anything 16 ga. and under. For 14 ga.-11ga. I use 5/64" 6013.
The hell?
Your stick welding everything? You beat on your buggy with a slag hammer?
Just kidding! mm: mm: mm: I just didn't know. It looks very good! It is just as strong as other methods, most just don't do it quite so nicely. rofl
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LOL!! I SHOULD have said that I stick all of my mild steel stuff. LOL!!! NOT my frames.
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Ok, I was posting while you were clarifying. rofl
I actually like tacking with tig. There is usually a spot you can tack without filler if your holding something. But it's much handier if the parts are clamped.
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Same here.
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When I stick weld, the metal is CLEAN, and I use 7018 most of the time. Needle gun post weld, and it doesn't get any stronger, or neater. IMO
If I have to wire weld, I prefer to use MIG/MAG/Flux cored - dual sheild. Using short circuit or spray transfer. Hot as a mother fooker, yet it is super strong like stick, and it slages like stick too. Which is why you drag it too. The slag keeps the heat in the weld so that it doesn't cool too fast. I little needle gunning right after to de-stress the weld and to get rid of the slag, and viola, you have one strong weld as it is an 80 series wire, so 80 kip tensile strength. Not to mention, it looks like smeared butter, and oh so smooth, instead of that stacked dime crap.
I prefer TIG, to all of them though. As you have the most control. But sometimes I get the 70S6 hard wire MIG/MAG out and weld up lawn mower b.s. and small stuff that doesn't require very much strength, because it's quick, easy, and cheap.
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When I stick weld, the metal is CLEAN, and I use 7018 most of the time. Needle gun post weld, and it doesn't get any stronger, or neater. IMO
If I have to wire weld, I prefer to use MIG/MAG/Flux cored - dual sheild. Using short circuit or spray transfer. Hot as a mother fooker, yet it is super strong like stick, and it slages like stick too. Which is why you drag it too. The slag keeps the heat in the weld so that it doesn't cool too fast. I little needle gunning right after to de-stress the weld and to get rid of the slag, and viola, you have one strong weld as it is an 80 series wire, so 80 kip tensile strength. Not to mention, it looks like smeared butter, and oh so smooth, instead of that stacked dime crap.
I prefer TIG, to all of them though. As you have the most control. But sometimes I get the 70S6 hard wire MIG/MAG out and weld up lawn mower b.s. and small stuff that doesn't require very much strength, because it's quick, easy, and cheap.
gg:
ff:
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Don't get me wrong, it looks cool as hell, but I couldn't pass a D11 weld test with it. The only way was to smooth weld. Stacking dimes, with MIG or MAG generally means having to reheat a small portion of the weld that has been given a short amount to time to solidify. The flux that's present on the top of the weld puddle is then pushed back into the weld. Hence porosity in the weld. Hence, I failed the test the first two times I took it. I then took a welding course at a nearby community college, and was then taught the correct way to weld... smooth. Then I passed with less that 1% porosity. ;)
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Ok, so I mig everything at home and use gas. I stick at work but
Thin material at work is 1/4 inch. So does this mean my gas - mig welded
Buggy is unsafe in your opinions ? And if so, what about the other 90 percent of us that gas mig our buggies ?
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Gas mig welding is very good if done right. Done wrong no welding is.
You need to tell more of the methoed you gas mig. Migging alone is not tak tak. Good migging is constant. As long as the duty cycle of your welder is good for or will allow till the joints finished. There are times where you weld 1/4 to 1/3 of the way around a tube then reposition. But thats not tak tak tak tak.....
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sorry in advance for the sound of frustration. I don't do the tack tack tack. skuWHEEZE that sombitch and let'er eat. you need heat, not too much, not too little either, you guys know the drill, so do I. it just got me fired up cause it sounded like you were sayin mig isn't good enough for you guys.
I'm building an under 600 pound with liquids, mini. and using a 220 lincoln 175 pro mig. with a 75 / 25 gas mix. I have 3 years of woods ABUSE on the current buggy we beat on. and the only metal that broke was when we ripped the a-arm mounts out of the tube they were welded to. but the welds held, the tube is what gave.
we re-welded and that was two years ago.
all I'm ranting about here is, fabr is someone I respect from a builders perspective. despite what crap I'll hear for this, I think he know's what he's talking about and how to do this stuff and do it well. when he said he he would never final weld with mig anything that his ass rides in, I got a little chapped is all. cause thats all I do here at the house is mig. all I've ever done at the house. so now I question myself and if I need to get a tig for home and all that blah blah... dammit fabr, thanks ???
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SNOOP'S
Take a chill pill...I think what you missed IS
ALL OF FABR'S CHASSIS ARE CHRO-MO not Mild steel
Cho-mo pretty much needs to be tig'ed...or pre-heated he's not knocking mig...
He just bought a passport suitcase mig welder...
I give him some pointers to get started...I haven't played with it yet...
I DON'T DO THAT KIND OF WORK ANYMORE ;D
Just sayin 8)
Now I just talk shit and serve up tastee viddles to the local rednecks.....
Sending their taste buds into SPEC SHOCK LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO LMAO
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Got any cotton on a string. Forgot he's cro-mo. been a bad week here. Shift work gets to ya
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it just got me fired up cause it sounded like you were sayin mig isn't good enough for you guys.
I mig most everything because thats the kind of welder I have. I used to have to tig where I worked and I would buy a tig if I found a good deal on one in a minute. Either is fine. Some feel that Tigging 4130 is a plus. Thus they do it. Thats all for preferance. There is a LOT more than I will get into on that after the weld here. But for joining the metal either can be good. Tigs tend to be pretty AND you get more control of the fill material in quanity and the type of fill material.
But with proper methoeds and the right materails MIG is VERY strong.
I have 3 years of woods ABUSE on the current buggy we beat on. and the only metal that broke was when we ripped the a-arm mounts out of the tube they were welded to. but the welds held, the tube is what gave.
we re-welded and that was two years ago.
Some guys will get more mad at you talking about their welds than if they caught you with their girlfriend. But I will say the above parts in color need to be taken into account/thoughts. It IS COMPLETLEY possible that the arm mounts ripped the tube due to simple sheer strength issues. Steel can only take so much.
BUT it is also very POSSIBLE that the welds HAZ area make the tube fail just outside the welds.
I hear all the time guys who think they make stronger welds than the material as it often breaks just outside the weld. So the weld MUST be stronger!!
But thats often cause the welding had somehow damaged the tube or other metal in a heat related way. Thus weakening it.
You situation could have been either. Just be aware of that.
Its not something to be ashamed of as much as learn from if it happens. So that you know to avoid it and not have welds that might fail and hurt you or someone.
Its also why some prefer TIG as you do tend to have more heat control too. Done right.
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I completely agree with the heat thing, too little thumb down, too much thumb down. On my Hobart 140 I use #2 sometimes #3 heat setting and only about 20 in/min on wire. Nice and slow. I wish I could could adjust heat and wire on the fly. Guess I'll have to move to tig one day?
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sorry in advance for the sound of frustration. I don't do the tack tack tack. skuWHEEZE that sombitch and let'er eat. you need heat, not too much, not too little either, you guys know the drill, so do I. it just got me fired up cause it sounded like you were sayin mig isn't good enough for you guys.
I'm building an under 600 pound with liquids, mini. and using a 220 lincoln 175 pro mig. with a 75 / 25 gas mix. I have 3 years of woods ABUSE on the current buggy we beat on. and the only metal that broke was when we ripped the a-arm mounts out of the tube they were welded to. but the welds held, the tube is what gave.
we re-welded and that was two years ago.
all I'm ranting about here is, fabr is someone I respect from a builders perspective. despite what crap I'll hear for this, I think he know's what he's talking about and how to do this stuff and do it well. when he said he he would never final weld with mig anything that his ass rides in, I got a little chapped is all. cause thats all I do here at the house is mig. all I've ever done at the house. so now I question myself and if I need to get a tig for home and all that blah blah... dammit fabr, thanks ???
;D ;D I didn't mean to say that MIG is necessarily bad. It isn't. Many times tho an inexperienced MIG welder will make what looks like a good weld with little or no penetration. I feel it happens a LOT more migging and it CAN be a bad thing. I still will ALWAYS prefer a tigged cage for one reason. When tigging you KNOW what that weld is since,IMO,you have absolute control over the weld puddle when tigging. Nothing wrong with mig if using the correct techniques.
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sorry in advance for the sound of frustration. I don't do the tack tack tack. skuWHEEZE that sombitch and let'er eat. you need heat, not too much, not too little either, you guys know the drill, so do I. it just got me fired up cause it sounded like you were sayin mig isn't good enough for you guys.
I'm building an under 600 pound with liquids, mini. and using a 220 lincoln 175 pro mig. with a 75 / 25 gas mix. I have 3 years of woods ABUSE on the current buggy we beat on. and the only metal that broke was when we ripped the a-arm mounts out of the tube they were welded to. but the welds held, the tube is what gave.
we re-welded and that was two years ago.
all I'm ranting about here is, fabr is someone I respect from a builders perspective. despite what crap I'll hear for this, I think he know's what he's talking about and how to do this stuff and do it well. when he said he he would never final weld with mig anything that his ass rides in, I got a little chapped is all. cause thats all I do here at the house is mig. all I've ever done at the house. so now I question myself and if I need to get a tig for home and all that blah blah... dammit fabr, thanks ???
LOL!!! Yup,there's more than one person that doesn't agree with you but THANKS for the vote of confidence. ;D ;D
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I mig most everything because thats the kind of welder I have. I used to have to tig where I worked and I would buy a tig if I found a good deal on one in a minute. Either is fine. Some feel that Tigging 4130 is a plus. Thus they do it. Thats all for preferance. There is a LOT more than I will get into on that after the weld here. But for joining the metal either can be good. Tigs tend to be pretty AND you get more control of the fill material in quanity and the type of fill material.
But with proper methoeds and the right materails MIG is VERY strong.
Some guys will get more mad at you talking about their welds than if they caught you with their girlfriend. But I will say the above parts in color need to be taken into account/thoughts. It IS COMPLETLEY possible that the arm mounts ripped the tube due to simple sheer strength issues. Steel can only take so much.
BUT it is also very POSSIBLE that the welds HAZ area make the tube fail just outside the welds.
I hear all the time guys who think they make stronger welds than the material as it often breaks just outside the weld. So the weld MUST be stronger!!
But thats often cause the welding had somehow damaged the tube or other metal in a heat related way. Thus weakening it.
You situation could have been either. Just be aware of that.
Its not something to be ashamed of as much as learn from if it happens. So that you know to avoid it and not have welds that might fail and hurt you or someone.
Its also why some prefer TIG as you do tend to have more heat control too. Done right.
There is also the design of the tabs. I copied my A-arm mounts from the Pilot. That design requires over half the tube wall to be ripped out in order to rip the tab off, not just a little bit around a single tab. Even though a Pilot frame is only .065" ERW, the bolt will rip through the ~0.1" thick mount, not tear the tube. I make mine out of .120, and the tube out of .095" DOM. When someone hit a ditch and ripped the arms off one side, the mounts held. He bolted on new arms and was good to go.
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+1
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+1 too on that. I have seen some mounts that are bare minimum contact area on the tubes.
The more the merrier for contact area there. Heck yeah.