DTSFab.com (Desert, Trail and Sand)
General Discussion => Something to talk about => Topic started by: BrianN on January 04, 2022, 04:29:37 PM
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I decided to cut the back of my buggy off, rebuild it, lengthen wheelbase, and swap to a 6 speed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fkmXQF1b/IMG-20220102-180859.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/fkmXQF1b)
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That's awesome Brian! I'm looking forward to seeing it as an even more improved version. 😎👍
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your going to need a bigger shop soon lol nice work and i hope the 6 speed is as much stronger than the 5 as most say it is!! maybe time to turn it up?? ;D or are you back in baa?? :m
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Oh, dsrace, you are an instigator! OK, let me find a new tuner and we will "turn it up". What's next, power steering?! Bigger heims?! (Inside joke)
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Oh, dsrace, you are an instigator! OK, let me find a new tuner and we will "turn it up". What's next, power steering?! Bigger heims?! (Inside joke)
what.....you dont have power steering..... YET ;D :m :m
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COOL, Cant what to see how it holds up. your 5 speed held up pretty well. the wheelies will be a little more controllable to with the longer wheel base.
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I'm going to put power steering in mine this spring. I hate the steering wheel jerking through the chop.
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I'm going to put power steering in mine this spring. I hate the steering wheel jerking through the chop.
you will enjoy that for sure!
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Finally got some tubing and made a few bends. Braced the A-arms and built a passenger seat base. Yaaay! Now my seats will match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XGdfHnXG/IMG-20220129-210835.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/XGdfHnXG)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YhpPWsyf/IMG-20220129-210823.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/YhpPWsyf)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tsJmrVbs/IMG-20220129-201712.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/tsJmrVbs)
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Lookin good Brother!😎👍
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def will extend the wheel base but looks good!
is the exhaust going to remain the same?
is there only one shift shaft out of the tail?
on another note..... my hv24 trans will not be done until late april or early may now. they called me thurs and informed me of that.
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Thanks Adam. Looking forward to the next group gathering. The headers will stay the same. I may end up changing/lengthening the dump pipe. The shift shaft is basically the same as the 5 speed. My cable shifter is supposed to still work, other than building new mounting brackets on the trans. Do you want me to call Sean at Weddle and convince him that it would be in his best interest to move your build to the top of the list?!!! Can you have your buggy modified and tabbed for the hv24 prior to getting it?
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Good progress on the new tranny and frame build. Keep plugging.
Sucks to hear your HV-24 is so far out. Have you got a backup plan?
I am tearing mine down to switch tranny's cause I was popping out of first gear for some reason. And trying some new shock valving
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Thanks Adam. Looking forward to the next group gathering. The headers will stay the same. I may end up changing/lengthening the dump pipe. The shift shaft is basically the same as the 5 speed. My cable shifter is supposed to still work, other than building new mounting brackets on the trans. Do you want me to call Sean at Weddle and convince him that it would be in his best interest to move your build to the top of the list?!!! Can you have your buggy modified and tabbed for the hv24 prior to getting it?
i would like to say ....yes??? rofl not sure if it would speed things up or would result in a refund :m :nw cause i'm pretty sure if i were to repaeat to sean that he said they had all the parts for the hv24's so those could be built right away......i'd get a refund w/o prior notice :m he said they had a huge surge in vw parts sales and there is 3 performance vw pieces still used in the 24 and those will take time as those parts have been transitioned back home to a new addition. i'm sure dealers trump my trans too. dont know that for sure but a feeling lets say.
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Good progress on the new tranny and frame build. Keep plugging.
Sucks to hear your HV-24 is so far out. Have you got a backup plan?
I am tearing mine down to switch tranny's cause I was popping out of first gear for some reason. And trying some new shock valving
kind of sort of maybe possibly have a back up plan :D so the last 2 weeks i thought i was just battling covid but turns out it was the wuhan limited edition influenza a/covid bundle plan. today is my first full day back at work in almost 2 weeks now. on some pills to kill bacterial/fungel infections as that is what covid causes/is. cannot drink caffinated liquids while taking the pill.........no coffee and no mt dew is cruel and unusual torture! i said F it yesterday and had a soda for lunch. the headaches get annoying w/o caffine!!
so as soon as i can i need to go get scotts rail and go through it.
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If it makes you feel any better I'm still waiting on block/pistons/valves/rockers. It's only been 7+ months................ :nw No problem,I have a crank and rods now. :m
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If it makes you feel any better I'm still waiting on block/pistons/valves/rockers. It's only been 7+ months................ :nw No problem,I have a crank and rods now. :m
no that does not make me feel better :m
the whole inventory shortage is what happens when a country farms most of it manufacturing over seas.
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Ummmm ya, I agree but all my stuff is American made. Nothing is from out of the states. beathorse.gif~c200
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that is good and at the same time it makes one wonder where there shortages are that they are that far out, hmmmm
in weddles case, they told me a few part were coming back in house. it sucks the trans wont be done in the next couple weeks as i would like but it will be sooner then a mendi 2d would be right now. well unless my trans takes a back seat to there dealers that is.
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Got the bottom section finished and a few more tubes in and the 5 link kinda sorted out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vgy44SDq/IMG-20220207-201238.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/vgy44SDq)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nCrC9mcJ/IMG-20220207-201204.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/nCrC9mcJ)
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Looking good Mr.N!!
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looks like its coming along great.
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looks good, i like it.
are you going to add a removable tube between the upper radius rods over the trans?
(https://i.postimg.cc/jny5Fjfs/IMG-20220207-201238.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/jny5Fjfs)
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Yes. And those uprights are actually double wall. I should still be able to pull the trans separately, but the engine has to lifted very high to remove/install. That's ok, though, because once this mod is done, I won't ever pull the motor again. Well, maybe once more when I build the BMW engine!!
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Beemer????? Do tell.
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fabr, I forgot how big your new motor was going to be. Will you be swapping parts from the 360? A while back, I started researching the idea of running a 4 cylinder turbo bmw. Long story short, no one makes a trans adapter, so I would have to build my own. It can be done. I have talked to some engine builders, but they seem to lose interest with the idea of an off road car and the tuning of an aftermarket ECU, etc. But it can be done. I moved my suspension back on my buggy to accommodate a longer motor, which would be an I-4. I ran out of time to go any further with the idea this year, but MAYBE in the future.
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fabr, I forgot how big your new motor was going to be. Will you be swapping parts from the 360? A while back, I started researching the idea of running a 4 cylinder turbo bmw. Long story short, no one makes a trans adapter, so I would have to build my own. It can be done. I have talked to some engine builders, but they seem to lose interest with the idea of an off road car and the tuning of an aftermarket ECU, etc. But it can be done. I moved my suspension back on my buggy to accommodate a longer motor, which would be an I-4. I ran out of time to go any further with the idea this year, but MAYBE in the future.
what trans are you going to use?
:m LMAO turbo 4 cyl bs1 ;D........ im betting turbo v6 :nw ;D ;)
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Keeping an open mind to the trans, IF this ever happens, but would like to stay with the Suby 6 speed. (Since I would have to build my own adapter anyway) BMW doesn't make a V6, or v4, but they do have a V12!! Of course, that would need twin turbos. And I would need a new chassis. Oh, and power steering. Bigger shocks, tires, heims, trans, etc. Hmmm, now you got me thinking.
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tiwn turbo inline 6 cyl? ;)
BAA is every thurs at 7pm. rofl
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What do you think about 1 turbo per cylinder?
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What would you use? A blow dryer?? ;) :)
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Btw, my new engine will be 427 inches. I'll not be using any of the 360 parts on / in it. Plan is to keep the 360 as a backup all ready to go.
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What do you think about 1 turbo per cylinder?
i think you need to attend baa meeting twice a week with thoughts like that LMAO
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What would you use? A blow dryer?? ;) :)
ya know.....i pre fer n/a LMAO
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Btw, my new engine will be 427 inches. I'll not be using any of the 360 parts on / in it. Plan is to keep the 360 as a backup all ready to go.
personally and from my view point.......your current 360 runs damn good and isnt lacking for tq. now there was a learning curve with head gaskets and cams but damn good. i know, the 427 will run even better, not that it needs to .....ya i said it LMAO
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Head gaskets were an issue on the 434 sbc due to poor cam choice .
. No issues with the 360 other than a seepage into #3. Pretty sure I know why but will wait to freshen up to know for sure.
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Head gaskets were an issue on the 434 sbc due to poor cam choice .
. No issues with the 360 other than a seepage into #3. Pretty sure I know why but will wait to freshen up to know for sure.
my mistake, but that 360 has ran damn good from my view point. i was impressed anyway!
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Got some shock mount ideas fabbed. Only took 3 tries and more wasted tubing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2bX1hB9X/IMG-20220214-202940.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/2bX1hB9X)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k6dmZM6X/IMG-20220214-202910.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/k6dmZM6X)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HVPCm9cN/IMG-20220214-203100.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/HVPCm9cN)
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looks good. i do not see any reason that wont work. thats a new look to the back end as well!
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Looking very good Mr.N! Only suggestion I have is the small brace tube above top shock mount in the first pic. I would have run it to the intersection of the B and C pillar. Much more in line with the load path.
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coming right along and looking good. i have to ask. what it the aluminum device at the top of 3rd pic? I assume its a jig to help hold the piping until tacked in place. feel me in.
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shifter
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fabr is good! That is my cable shifter hung up out of the way. I experimented with the upper mount support tube angle. With that position being full droop, there is no force on it. With the shock at full bump, when under the heaviest load, it is nearly a straight shot. There are quite a few more braces planned for the entire back end.
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shifter
makes sense know. i was way off. lol
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is that shifter a direct bolt on for the new 6 speed or needs modification? so any idea what they rate the 6 speed as far as power input? i just ask cause i know your turning that hair dryer up :nw 10:
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shifter
makes sense know. i was way off. lol
Dave, if you saw some of the things I have to do to accomplish my mods, WORKING OUT OF MY SHED, then you would realize that you weren't that far off after all!!
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is that shifter a direct bolt on for the new 6 speed or needs modification? so any idea what they rate the 6 speed as far as power input? i just ask cause i know your turning that hair dryer up :nw 10:
The shifter is supposed to be bolt-on, except for a small mounting bracket modification. And I may have to turn it up to offset all the fricken weight I am adding for strength.
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Great progress, I like the rear cage so far. Keep cutting, welding and adding more steel!
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shifter
makes sense know. i was way off. lol
Dave, if you saw some of the things I have to do to accomplish my mods, WORKING OUT OF MY SHED, then you would realize that you weren't that far off after all!!
i totally get that. i find myself trying to make tools out of junk around the shop. rather then just buying the dam thing. penny saved is a penny earned.
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shifter
makes sense know. i was way off. lol
Dave, if you saw some of the things I have to do to accomplish my mods, WORKING OUT OF MY SHED, then you would realize that you weren't that far off after all!!
i totally get that. i find myself trying to make tools out of junk around the shop. rather then just buying the dam thing. penny saved is a penny earned.
now isnt that the truth!
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shifter
makes sense know. i was way off. lol
Dave, if you saw some of the things I have to do to accomplish my mods, WORKING OUT OF MY SHED, then you would realize that you weren't that far off after all!!
i totally get that. i find myself trying to make tools out of junk around the shop. rather then just buying the dam thing. penny saved is a penny earned.
A penny saved is a penny earned and it only took all day to do so........... ;D
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Got a few parts located. I will definitely need stiffer springs now. I went from basically 1:1 motion ratio to 2:1. ( I think I said that right) And new brake lines, shifter cables, etc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/F103H7H5/IMG-20220220-193931-01.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/F103H7H5)
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WHAT WILL YOU NEED FOR SPRINGS? I MAY HAVE WHAT YOU NEED.
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might have some springs out this way to. if fab does not have what you need.
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I can help you with the calcs, and get your spring rates figured out if you need?
I also have some eibach 2.0 springs in my collection.
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Thanks ya'll for the offers. My rear springs will be 2.5". My current springs are 125 lb-16" primary and 175 lb-18" secondary. Eibach. First chance I get, I will get some angles, weights(to the best of my ability) actual motion ratio, shock shaft showing at ride height. Am I missing anything? I will admit that I have sucked in the past at determining spring rates!! I do not have my valving specs available, but should be able to get them. And Dave, we need to plan some other trips before fall.
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Thanks ya'll for the offers. My rear springs will be 2.5". My current springs are 125 lb-16" primary and 175 lb-18" secondary. Eibach. First chance I get, I will get some angles, weights(to the best of my ability) actual motion ratio, shock shaft showing at ride height. Am I missing anything? I will admit that I have sucked in the past at determining spring rates!! I do not have my valving specs available, but should be able to get them. And Dave, we need to plan some other trips before fall.
I agree with that. I'm sure i will make it down a few times this summer.
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Briann, your springs are much softer than mine, but I am probably over sprung. I have 300 over 500# right now. Thinking of dropping the bottom spring to 400#.
Hate to hear that Dave. Get me your bosses phone # and I will tell him <a href="http://www.animateit. <a href="http://www.animateit. <a href="http://www.animateit. rofl
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Brian , when choosing springs remember that the combined rate should be only as stiff as needed to set the car ride height. You can vary the secondary rate and crossover placement as needed to help with g-outs.Shock valving is for ride characteristics . That is why bypasses are so superior to all other shocks.
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fabr, please explain "combined rate". Budlight, my springs are/were so light because of the placement of the shocks. They were mounted directly on top of bearing carriers, close to tires, and straight up and down basically. I was using nearly all 16" of shock shaft for 16" of wheel travel.That is what I consider 1:1 motion ratio.
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I'm way too lazy to type it all out so I'll link you to this
https://shocktherapyst.com/the-truth-about-dual-rate-springs/#:~:text=To%20figure%20the%20combined%20spring%20rate%20just%20%28200,travel%20you%20feel%20a%20300%20lb%20single%20rate.
There is a LOT of info on shock and spring theory out there. It's really some sort of black magic voodoo shit but when you get it right it is heaven. The above gives a good explanation that most can agree with.
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Yes,one inch of wheel travel to one inch of shock travel is a 1:1 ratio. Nothing wrong with that but most designers try to have something along the line of 1.5:1 or so . Many design a progressive rate into it so the ratio might go from 1.5:1 to maybe 1.2:1 as an example . You definitely do not want to go to a regressive rate though.
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Here is a good spring calculator.
https://www.crawlpedia.com/spring_rate_calculator.htm
Bear in mind it is imperative you have good/correct info to input. Shock angle and corner weights MUST be accurate or you are just pissing in the wind. I have a set of chassis scales that you are welcome to use but they are pretty heavy to ship and I'd prefer not to anyway so you'd likely want to maybe meet me in Tulsa to pick them up maybe. You could just bring them back to LS this spring.Whatever you do you must have car leveled fore/aft and side to side on the scales. All 4 scales must be set up at same height and level corner to corner to corner.
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fabr, that is a very generous offer. One that I don't take lightly. One that I hope I can take advantage of. I still need to finish fab work and build a fuel tank. How often are you in Tulsa? I am here Monday-Friday. But can be here on weekends also.
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I am in Tulsa hit and miss. Sometimes 3-4 times in a week and maybe not at all for weeks at a time. I never know. When you get all done with the car let me know and we can make it happen one way or the other.What part of Tulsa are you at when there usually? I'm usually somewhere in the NE quadrant.
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Brian,
I used those same pages that Fabr linked to for my suspension.
I believe they suggested ride height for the front springs to have around 1" of pre load, and that the rear should have around 2".
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I think I have all the major tubes in. Next will be cutting and tacking in a bunch of angle braces before pulling motor and trans to finish welding. The brace between 5 link inboard rods is in. One upper radiator brace is finished. I tested suspension travel and can safely get 18" with 2" of ground clearance and 3" of shock shaft left, with no cv binding. This is on concrete floor. fabr, I work on 11th (route 66), between Utica and Lewis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zbrQCLwB/IMG-20220226-200113.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/zbrQCLwB)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qgpYg3MD/IMG-20220226-150301.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/qgpYg3MD)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0K5H4LB1/IMG-20220226-195201.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/0K5H4LB1)
(https://i.postimg.cc/47QSBJw1/IMG-20220226-195906.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/47QSBJw1)
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looks good. the cross support on the upper radius rods is def a plus!
i do not fully understand the wheel travel part unless you have suspension stop? if there is 3" of shaft remaining then the wheel can still travel up? or did i read that wrong? not knocking it just making asking. :nw
(https://i.postimg.cc/JyMQgNv5/274887306-494904072104720-4550956715888677500-n.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/JyMQgNv5)
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You understood correctly. That is just a safe number, BUT I have no idea how I will add a stop with this mod. I don't like the idea of putting a bump stop on the shock itself. Without any stop (yet) it will hit the ground, because the 3" of shock shaft, the suspension will travel at least another 6". I could just drive really slow so I never bottom out...
I love that meme!
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Good progress buddy. Nice fit on all the tubing. Could you make a urethane bushing 3" long that goes over the shock shaft and fits inside the spring. it would replace the thin little piece of rubber they have?
I like the Caddy shack pic. Is anyone going down on the early date of April 6 - 8th?
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I am shooting for that date. Hoping to dune with you. Yes, I may have to make a stop in the shock. I would prefer a stop from the frame to the bearing carrier, but that may not work out.
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Brian it looks like I'll be making a run to Tulsa yet this week or maybe first of next. Give me a call @ 620-251-0920 mornings and let's see if we can make it happen. If I'm out just leave a contact number and I'lll call you back. I usually will be in T town around 10-11. Wes
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Got myself confused. I can hear Glenn telling me to put the crack pipe down for a while! I have used a few spring rate calculators and came up with answers of 464 and 474 lb/in spring rate needed for my new suspension. If these are even close, how do I convert this number into a 16" long and 18" long spring combination? (That is what I currently have) They are 2.5" springs. I am attaching pics of my numbers, just in case someone can help me. The scale weight is the worst (most weight) scenario.
NOTE: In my calculations, I considered my 16" shock to be a 10.75" shock, because I am not using the full stroke. Is this necessary?
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQfYYJDc/IMG-20220412-200739.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hQfYYJDc)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5YtKHHFL/IMG-20220410-174754.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/5YtKHHFL)
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First thing, have you deducted unsprung weight from sprung weight?
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Never mind,I just noticed you have.
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Yes. 658-115 lbs =543.
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I'm in the middle of some shit at the moment. Will reply more tomorrow.
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Quickly ,using your numbers that I haven't checked,543#/2.125" travel to ride height will make the needed spring rate 255#. Go to a dual rate calculator such as https://f-o-a.com/foa-suspension-calculator/ ,scroll down to where it says calculate dual spring rate and in the field asking for primary spring rate input 255 and hit recalculate. The results will be the needed main and tender spring rates needed to get the dual spring rate desired. That is a good starting point. bear in mind that the main spring rate will become fully active when the crossover ring is active.
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Personally,i would like to see you lower your ride height to where there was maybe 4" in shock to make for a lot better ride and much more reasonable spring rates. That would lower the spring rate to 135#/"
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I agree completely. My thinking on that high of a ride height is the fact that my car will be able to hit the ground. And the more compression distance I had, the easier it would be to limit that. Does that make sense?
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It would seem to make sense but you will find that that line of thought will only make for a very harsh ride. Remember that it is the main spring(and shock valving) that will keep car from bottoming out after it hits the crossover. It's a balancing act that ,IMO,most people make a mistake by going too stiff on the springing. When that is done it makes it difficult or even impossible to get the valving right.
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If I understand you correctly, you are figuring spring rate by simply dividing unsprung weight by amount of shock shaft in the body, at ride height. What I would consider "sag". If so, why is the crawlpedia formula so different? Because my number was way higher.
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I always used (R1xR2)/(R1+R2) to figure combined spring rate, until it hits the crossover
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What is R1 and R2? I plug my current springs, which are 125 and 175, into the equation and get 73. I don't understand what that number means.
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Got myself confused. I can hear Glenn telling me to put the crack pipe down for a while! I have used a few spring rate calculators and came up with answers of 464 and 474 lb/in spring rate needed for my new suspension. If these are even close, how do I convert this number into a 16" long and 18" long spring combination? (That is what I currently have) They are 2.5" springs. I am attaching pics of my numbers, just in case someone can help me. The scale weight is the worst (most weight) scenario.
NOTE: In my calculations, I considered my 16" shock to be a 10.75" shock, because I am not using the full stroke. Is this necessary?
(https://i.postimg.cc/hQfYYJDc/IMG-20220412-200739.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hQfYYJDc)
am i reading that correctly.....total weight of 1943lbs?? ;D ;D ;D ;D you just had to be lighter then my tank huh! :m it's not a competion :m17 lbs lighter then mine :m so i can picture you sitting back ( see pic ) and going i beat his rail by 17 lbs rofl
(https://i.postimg.cc/mcTYtDHW/731f91e6-d437-494f-8fe6-bae738fb0dc3-7954f5e9d181aa4078eb4a2554311303acce101d.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcTYtDHW)
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What is R1 and R2? I plug my current springs, which are 125 and 175, into the equation and get 73. I don't understand what that number means.
R1 is the upper spring rate and R2 the lower spring. With my car each rear corner weighs 750 with 2 passengers, but my spring rate showed that I needed 177#, so went to 300# over 500# springs which is 187# spring rate. It seems close, still need more valving changes.
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The 1943 is me, 8 gallons of gas, and 144 lbs in the passenger seat. The car and 3 gallons of gas is 1640. This trans and mod added a little over 200 lbs.
Accutune just figured my spring rates and suggested 16"X 300lb and 16" X 400lb springs. I am afraid that I am confusing them with my information, though. Mainly amount of shaft that is showing at ride height. I am lost, so I will just start buying springs and hope for the best. I thought I could just input information into the online formulas and come up with spring weights and lengths, but evidently I am doing it wrong!
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DS, the rest of your post just came through. That is hilarious! Actually, I thought my car was an overweight pig. I still prefer light, small, simple, low hp, and nimble. That way I have to drive like a madman where someone in a big car has his arm rested on the door and is just sightseeing.
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mine is 1960 lbs wet with no one in it rofl
so thats an interesting spring rate calculator. i had to read the instructions on d1 2 3 4 5 and 6. so thy are basically shock to wheel ratio or leverage.
so if i used this calculator correctly..... you are using a 16' stroke shock, but only 10.75" out of the 16" to achieve 19" of wheel travel? if that i correct and you gave up 5" of ground clearance ( from 20" to 15") that's 25% in droop and the shock leaning in/forward at 38*? with d1 with the a arm pivot at the frame to the shock head pivot at the carrier ( 23.25") and d2 being a arm pivot at frame to pivot at bearing carrier ( 20.75") and 670 lbs on the wheel? i rounded up on the dead weight on the wheel to be safe. if those #'s are correct then it recommends 377 over 565 lb springs. that seems a bit extreme to me but that is a starting point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mh9vZ8f9/Capture.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mh9vZ8f9)
(https://i.postimg.cc/N5wWKmBz/Capture-1.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5wWKmBz)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CzH9k5KL/Capture-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/CzH9k5KL)
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i had 20% in droop where it looks like your 25% in droop so i recalculated and it now says 301 over 453. that still seems a bit high to me but what do i know ;D ;D
don't take this the wrong way but i am surprised your current 125 primary over your current 175 secondary worked for you. those are light springs imo and only imo as i am no expert.
if were myself, i would go say 200/400 and adjust so you stay a min of 1" away from coil bind on secondary. well both really but only using 10.75" out of 16" you really shouldn't be in that area on primary. not sure you can adjust enough to hit coil bind on the secondary either but not there to see in person. normally i shoot for a 1.5:1 ratio on shock/wheel travel. i have played in the 2:1 ratio as well and i see nothing wrong with it. in fact the heavy sxs's play in the 2:1 ratio with tender springs, primary and secondary but they moved to the 3.0 bodies. i thought i saw speed utv went to 4.0 shock bodies and is playing in the 2.1 or 2.2:1 ratio but don't quote me on that. i say this as it looks like calculating a 16" stroke shock you are .84:1 but calculating an actual 10.75" of shock travel you are a .56:1 ratio.
so i say 200/400 lb springs so your not over sprung and you will want to know your valving. at those ratios you won't need extreme valving imo. i would think you'll want faster comp and slower rebound ( so you don't po go stick ) but i will have to think on that one. when i say faster i mean say 45 or 50 on comp and say slower i mean 80 to 90 or even possibly 2-1 on rebound with the s/w ratio. maybe i'm backwards...fabr thoughts on valving?
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if the 125/175 worked well and you only added say 200 lbs with shock ratio's apprx the same as well as shock angles then you don't need to go much more really. this is if they worked for you though. i never saw you bottom out but i wasn't watching all the time. i did see budlight roll over :m glad you were safe but what a site to see in slow motion. glenn's reaction was priceless rofl
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Dang, I just typed a long response, and I got logged off and lost it all. Basically, my shocks were straight up and down before, and used all 16" of stroke. They are 38 degrees from 90 now. Your .56 ratio is almost identical to Accutunes.
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you can adjust your log in time when you log in. or select stay logged in and i think that deactivates the timer. i think but have never tried
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technically you could get away with a 10" stroke shock now. a 10" stroke c/o would be 26.10" ext length vs your 40.10"? you currently have. now i am not suggesting buying new shocks or that you want to either....just saying.
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My thoughts are he wishes to sit too high. Period. with only 2 inches shock travel to ride height the spring rates will be way too high and the ride willl always suffer badly. He needs to drop his ride height to whatever is required to allow approx 4" (at least 3+ inches)in shock at ride height. For what we do and where/how we ride there isn't really any need for 15" ride height. Then he needs to determine the primary spring rate that will support his corner weight at that ride height. Next step is to calculate the main and tender spring rates needed to support his car at that shock travel. That will get him in the correct spring rate ball park. Then and only then should there be any thought to valving.
Let's just round his rear corner weight to 540 pounds and assume 4 inches of shock travel to ride height. That makes his primary spring rate needed to support car at ride height 540/4=135 pounds/inch. Rounded off that makes his main spring rate 340 and tender rate 225.
Same scenario but with 3" shock travel to ride height. 540/3=180 primary rate. That requires main rate of450 and tender rate of 300.
Bottom line is that the higher the dual rate used will make the ride just that more harsh unnecessarily.
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you can adjust your log in time when you log in. or select stay logged in and i think that deactivates the timer. i think but have never tried
Set log in time to 0 to stay logged in until you decide to log out. I just stay logged in 24/7.
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My thoughts are he wishes to sit too high. Period. with only 2 inches shock travel to ride height the spring rates will be way too high and the ride willl always suffer badly. He needs to drop his ride height to whatever is required to allow approx 4" (at least 3+ inches)in shock at ride height. For what we do and where/how we ride there isn't really any need for 15" ride height. Then he needs to determine the primary spring rate that will support his corner weight at that ride height. Next step is to calculate the main and tender spring rates needed to support his car at that shock travel. That will get him in the correct spring rate ball park. Then and only then should there be any thought to valving.
Let's just round his rear corner weight to 540 pounds and assume 4 inches of shock travel to ride height. That makes his primary spring rate needed to support car at ride height 540/4=135 pounds/inch. Rounded off that makes his main spring rate 340 and tender rate 225.
Same scenario but with 3" shock travel to ride height. 540/3=180 primary rate. That requires main rate of450 and tender rate of 300.
Bottom line is that the higher the dual rate used will make the ride just that more harsh unnecessarily.
why 540 lbs? his chart looked like 670 lbs.
basically your saying 30%droop at ride height for a better ride?
i completly agree that 300/450 is too stiff for what we do/how we ride.
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you are correct in saying higher GC stiffens the ride. i am one of the odd ducts that pre fers a higher GC for my own personal reasons. it does make the ride a touch stiffer and can even cause po go sticking off dune lips. now i also run an air shock which adds another level of difficulty but easier to adjust. not as nice as coil assist air which btw they no longer offer according to mark at marks sand trans.
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To further illustrate he currently has 540/2.125=254 rate. That's a whopping 625 and 435 !!!!! That's not ever going to compress to full bump and will ride like a rock.
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My thoughts are he wishes to sit too high. Period. with only 2 inches shock travel to ride height the spring rates will be way too high and the ride willl always suffer badly. He needs to drop his ride height to whatever is required to allow approx 4" (at least 3+ inches)in shock at ride height. For what we do and where/how we ride there isn't really any need for 15" ride height. Then he needs to determine the primary spring rate that will support his corner weight at that ride height. Next step is to calculate the main and tender spring rates needed to support his car at that shock travel. That will get him in the correct spring rate ball park. Then and only then should there be any thought to valving.
Let's just round his rear corner weight to 540 pounds and assume 4 inches of shock travel to ride height. That makes his primary spring rate needed to support car at ride height 540/4=135 pounds/inch. Rounded off that makes his main spring rate 340 and tender rate 225.
Same scenario but with 3" shock travel to ride height. 540/3=180 primary rate. That requires main rate of450 and tender rate of 300.
Bottom line is that the higher the dual rate used will make the ride just that more harsh unnecessarily.
why 540 lbs? his chart looked like 670 lbs.
basically your saying 30%droop at ride height for a better ride?
i completly agree that 300/450 is too stiff for what we do/how we ride.
540 is his sprung corner weight. You must deduct the unsprung weight from the total corner weight to get the sprung weight that is what spring rates are based on.
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Understood. Accutunes numbers of 300/400 were with 4" to ride height, I thought, but could have misunderstood. At 2" to ride height, the numbers were EXTREME! They figured both being 16" long, compared to my current 16"/18". Fabr, does your calculations include spring length? Sprung weight is 543.
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Yes, those huge numbers are the same as theirs.
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My thoughts are he wishes to sit too high. Period. with only 2 inches shock travel to ride height the spring rates will be way too high and the ride willl always suffer badly. He needs to drop his ride height to whatever is required to allow approx 4" (at least 3+ inches)in shock at ride height. For what we do and where/how we ride there isn't really any need for 15" ride height. Then he needs to determine the primary spring rate that will support his corner weight at that ride height. Next step is to calculate the main and tender spring rates needed to support his car at that shock travel. That will get him in the correct spring rate ball park. Then and only then should there be any thought to valving.
Let's just round his rear corner weight to 540 pounds and assume 4 inches of shock travel to ride height. That makes his primary spring rate needed to support car at ride height 540/4=135 pounds/inch. Rounded off that makes his main spring rate 340 and tender rate 225.
Same scenario but with 3" shock travel to ride height. 540/3=180 primary rate. That requires main rate of450 and tender rate of 300.
Bottom line is that the higher the dual rate used will make the ride just that more harsh unnecessarily.
why 540 lbs? his chart looked like 670 lbs.
basically your saying 30%droop at ride height for a better ride?
i completly agree that 300/450 is too stiff for what we do/how we ride.
Not basically=absolutely!
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Understood. Accutunes numbers of 300/400 were with 4" to ride height, I thought, but could have misunderstood. At 2" to ride height, the numbers were EXTREME! They figured both being 16" long, compared to my current 16"/18". Fabr, does your calculations include spring length? Sprung weight is 543.
Spring length is irrelevant when calculating spring rates. Spring length can be a factor especially in a scenario like yours where you are not using all of the travel to enable the use of the crossover collar. If the crossover is never in play the only spring rate you will have is the dual rate that will bottom out easily.
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Bear in mind the weights you used with a passenger added will not allow ANY backing off of the adjusters to lower the ride. I suggest you also calculate the needed spring rates without the passenger and use that since you can always add preload if needed to allow for additional weight. Add to that is the fact the nitrogen charge adds some spring rate as well and if your springs install with any preload that will also skew the numbers. It is very east to over spring your car. Err on the low side.
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I just looked at the Eibach spring selection and they only have 18" up to 225lb. That is why they suggested (2) 16". Oh, and DS, I just happen to have a pair of 10" Fox shocks that match my front 12" shocks, but it is too late Now!!! Well, maybe with my next mod session.
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I am glad you reminded me of the preload option. I just removed 50 lbs (for comparison) from the corner sprung weight and got 122 primary. That comes to 200/300 springs.
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I just looked at the Eibach spring selection and they only have 18" up to 225lb. That is why they suggested (2) 16". Oh, and DS, I just happen to have a pair of 10" Fox shocks that match my front 12" shocks, but it is too late Now!!! Well, maybe with my next mod session.
What is the max dimension from the spring perch to the adjusting collar? I would use a combination of springs that will allow the spring assembly to be just slightly loose when the adjuster is fully backed off or even screwed down up to around an inch. This is your zero preload point. If possible use a tender spring that is 2" (or maybe even shorter yet depending on where/when your crossover collar will hit) You want your crossover collar to come into play at around 50+- percent shock travel.
From what I see ,I would use a corner weight without concern of a passenger of 470 (540-1/2 of passenger of 70=470) and a 3.5" to ride height that will make a good starting point of 135 spring rate that would be a 340 main with a 225 tender. After that the valving will be the most important thing you will do.If and only if the bottoming out cannot be avoided with the stiffest valving should a higher spring rate be done. You will be cussing the valving tuning but it must be done and a complete set of shims is best to have on hand. That is not cheap.It's also the only way to "get it right" without compromises.
I like these guys for springs https://www.suspensionspring.com/coilover-springs/25-id-springs/16-springs-1.html
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I am glad you reminded me of the preload option. I just removed 50 lbs (for comparison) from the corner sprung weight and got 122 primary. That comes to 200/300 springs.
Don't discount the nitrogen charge either. It adds a significant preload to the equation at ride height . As the shock extends it becomes insignificant but at ride height it will raise the car ride height when charged.
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Thanks for the suggestions and info, y'all. I had to put my phone away tonight and do my taxes, so I will do more measuring tomorrow night.
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Complete shim kit for 2.0 fox shox https://pitstopusa.com/i-23900352-fox-valve-shim-kit.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=Shopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvrPXmdmT9wIVgRvUAR1WXQxhEAQYAiABEgJOJ_D_BwE
for 2.0/2.5/3.0 https://accutuneoffroad.com/product/fox-valve-shim-kits/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvrPXmdmT9wIVgRvUAR1WXQxhEAMYAyAAEgLwRfD_BwE
Don't forget to get a gallon of oil and perhaps a couple spare wear bands.
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I would like to learn how to tune/rebuild shocks for myself, but I will have to do some serious homework first. I have started reading articles, etc. But, as usual, I tend to get confused!!
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I would like to learn how to tune/rebuild shocks for myself, but I will have to do some serious homework first. I have started reading articles, etc. But, as usual, I tend to get confused!!
There's really nothing to it.
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rebuilding and revalving fox shocks is very easy to do. brianN you are more then easily capable of doing so yourself.
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It is sitting on springs! Car only: 4" to ride height, zero preload, 13" ground clearance. So I have 7" of up travel to limit straps. Accutune didn't want me to put bump stops on the shafts because it damages the seals if used too much. So I will come up with something to use as bump stops. 200# primary and 300# secondary. I will probably end up adding preload. Valving will be another issue. Then on to front shocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v417mv0Y/IMG-20220425-200336.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/v417mv0Y)
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looks like a great starting point. looking like its close to dune ready as well!
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That's looking good Brian! I'm excited to see the fruits of your labor.
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That's looking good Brian! I'm excited to see the fruits of your labor.
so in our group we have 3 brian's....
BE
BN
BS .... ;D best initials :m
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B1/B2/B3
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That's looking good Brian! I'm excited to see the fruits of your labor.
I am just waiting to get my truck back so I can leave. If all else fails, I will rent a truck to pull the trailer. When will you be at the dunes?
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looks great Brian,
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That's looking good Brian! I'm excited to see the fruits of your labor.
Adam, are you coming to Oklahoma? We are talking smack about you, so you should come and defend yourself!
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ya grimm reaper racing